Advice on re-grinding carving chisels

[nicguthrie]

I bought a set of carving chisels from rutlands a couple of months ago, for what seemed like a steal. Unfortunately they were not as good as it first appeared - something I'm coming to accept as standard for Rutland's own brand Dakota stuff.

I cracked them out the box to use and found that they needed a bit of sharpening, they're very coarsely ground and the Vee tool one is very badly ground, to the point it's more L shaped than V, with one "side" a lot fatter and shorter. The other chisels vary in how well they're made but one of the most annoying things with the gouge shaped ones is that the bevel angles vary, but are all very very steep. One gouge had a bevel angle of around 65degrees. This meant that to get the cutting edge against the work-piece it'd nearly need to be used as a scraper, it was tilted so close to vertical.

I was wondering if anyone has any tips for me in re-grinding these. I got them at a bargain price for the quantity, and my reasoning for keeping them was that if the steel is any good at all, then out of the 12 if I get 4 chisels that are decent, I've still got a decent deal. I have no idea how to even out the v tool, and I'm very nervous about grinding the gouges, since it looks so easy to get anything but a true flat edge while working around the curve.

I have a couple old but still functioning grinders, several oil stones, a 250/1000 grit wetstone, a couple of small diamond stones and a Worksharp WS3000 - so I think I'm covered gear-wise, it's more technique tips I'm looking for. I've never really sharpened profiled blades before, only knives and bench chisels.

Any gems of wisdom to share with me? (Other than "don't buy Dakota and expect great quality")

 

[marcus]

My advice would be:

a) don't buy Dakota and expect great quality
b) get a couple of cheap second hand gouges from ebay or similar to practice on
c) you can do it freehand with a standard grinding wheel, but you have to be very, very gentle and delicate, don't aim to take off much at a time, dip in water every couple of seconds once you get near to an arris forming. With the curved gouges you sort of hold the blade on the rest and swing the handle from side to side while turning it. It's not hard but takes a bit of practice, hence the suggestion to practice on something you don't care about!

 

[jimi43]

To be honest with you...the bargain sets tend to be poor quality and it's a bit of a hit and miss whether you get a good one or not.

If you are serious about carving, you will probably never be happy using them and they will eventually not seem as good a value as you first thought.

Here's an idea. Choose the one you like the most and then get yourself a really good quality one...an Addis or Pfiel or my favourite...and Ashley Iles one in that shape and use it against the others and then see how your work improves.

If the difference is huge...save up for more as you need them of the chosen quality one...if it is not that huge and you are happy with the remainder of the set...there is no harm done.

Alternatively you could try bootfairs when they open again in March...I found these three Ashley Iles ones for a few quid..

But this source seems to be a bit hit and miss...although you sometimes find Addis ones at fairs....

Re-grinding carving chisels very much depends on which chisel you are thinking of and each is a different technique.

Have a search in the UKW search engine and type in "grinding carving" or "grinding V" or "grinding gouges" and you will find a lot of previous threads where the subject is discussed specifically...usually at length.

Good luck with your carving...I take it you've been watching the BBC lately!?

Jim

 

[arnoldmason8]

Hi Nic
I would reccomend using a hand grinder with a medium wheel. Make sure the wheel is not glazed. Grind a small flat on the edge ( Approx !/32" ) and then start to grind the bevel to the correct angle ( Much shallower than a normal woodworking chisel ) keep checking as the bevel approachs the flat and keep grinding till the bevel is even all the way round the flat. Do not attempt to grind to a sharp edge otherwise you will blue the steel. Use a corse oilstone take the bevel to a sharp edge and then use finer stones to achieve a polished edge suitable for carving.

Best of luck !!!!!-------------Arnold

 

[Lons]

A video is probably of much more use to you than any number of words.

I suggest you have a look on youtube where I think there are several. Just view them all and pick out the relevant bits.

I have some if you get really stuck though I think too large to email so would be a disk and post job.

Bob

 

[marcros]

if all else fails, ashley iles will sort them out for you. they sharpened an addis v tool and a herring v tool for me for a few quid- came back like new. probably not worth the investment on dakota stuff though. I found it very difficult, as an absolute carving sharpening novice to know what to aim at when i hadn't got a good starting point, ie it wasnt right to begin with.

 

[Lons]

Nic

I've sent you a pm

Bob

 

[nicguthrie]

Marcus and Arnold - thanks for those little gems of tips, sounds like you've been at it yourselves for a while!

Some nice looking bargains there Jim, but unfortunately my wife has full scale medical OCD and can't abide second hand stuff in the house which would be a pain, since I'm planning on doing the carting side of things on days I'm to poorly to head out to my workshop for any length of time (I suffer a long term chronic pain condition - it ebbs and flows a bit, and no, I don't mean marriage! )

Are Ashley Isles expensive? I've been considering supplementing my collection with a couple carefully chosen individual chisels, but was thinking flex-cut or Henry Taylor. Was planning to wait and see how well I do with what I have first tho.

Someone mentioned the bevel angle should be less than an ordinary chisel, what is the correct angle? I've so far been aiming for 25 degree, but a bit more metal off now is just a bit more practice...

Also, what have I been missing on the BBC? I trend to only watch programs I know about, and even then, more often on IPlayer etc than the TV.

 

[Spindle]

Hi

You can download the Tormek handbook from here:

http://www.tormek.com/en/handbook/index.php

It contains some general info on sharpening carving tools.

Regards Mick

 

[jimi43]

............Also, what have I been missing on the BBC? I trend to only watch programs I know about, and even then, more often on IPlayer etc than the TV.

Carved With Love - BBC click here to see thread

............

Are Ashley Isles expensive? I've been considering supplementing my collection with a couple carefully chosen individual chisels, but was thinking flex-cut or Henry Taylor. Was planning to wait and see how well I do with what I have first tho.

If you watch the second of the series about Grinling Gibbons...you will see David Esterly in his studio using hundreds of very old (secondhand) chisels which have been used by many generations of craftsmen...and this is part of the magic of using these tools...aside from the fact that they are streets ahead of the quality most companies produce today...with the exception of companies like Ashley Iles. You will also see him using AI chisels!

If you are prevented from owning these gems...the new AI ones are the way to go...but try one out first to see.

These are £20-40 for the basic ones and Matthew at Workshop Heaven sells a HUGE range if these



(CLICK IMAGE TO GO TO WEBSITE AREA ON AI CARVING CHISELS)

I buy tools (or find them) as I need them for a job. A set might seem a good idea but there are literally thousands of shapes for carving and you would spend a fortune if you were to get them all. Like I say...use your Dakota ones until you find out which one(s) you use most often for your technique and then upgrade them as finances permit.

Cheers

Jim

 

[Lons]

Hi Nic

What has been said about old carving chisels is spot on and I have a few with lovely boxwood handles which I wouldn't part with. Part of the magic is using tools you know have been handled and cared for by craftsmen decades ago not like the throwaway stuff of today!

I agree also that you should buy only as you need and not because they look great in the box. You won't produce anything gazing lovingly at them. Don't ask how I know that :roll: I would keep an eye open on ebay. Some time ago I bought a boxed set of 6 Ashley Isles, brand new for £26 plus postage so occasionally bargains are there and new is new even if s/h :wink: (I haven't used them yet )

I do most of my carving with no more than 4 or 5 tools (my work is mostly in the round so can be different if lettering)

I have examples of Ashley isles, Henry Taylor and others and they are very good but my absolute favourites are Pfeil and especially a couple of fishtail gouges.

As far as bevels are concerned, there is a lot of twaddle spouted and for carving tools it very definately is not an exact science IMO. I use a steeper bevel if hard wood like oak down to shallow for say basswood. Haven't a clue what the angle is and don't care. the reason is quite simple. Shallow on very hard woods breaks the edge quickly and a shallow on softer woods allows you to slice through like a knife. Much more important is to keep touching up the edge on a strop whilst working to keep it razor sharp.

Bob

 

[jaywhoopee]

Hi Nic,

I've just been browsing some of Bob Easton's archive and this post reminded me of your question.

http://www.bob-easton.com/blog/2011/1744/

Hope this helps

John

 

[nicguthrie]

Thanks very much for all the insight and tips. After reading the article there, I'm definitely giving up on the v-tool, it has every single bad point he says to avoid - all on the one tool! Perhaps I should send it to him as a teaching aid.

I'll see about picking up an Ashley isles one or similar, when budget allows.

I have hopes of being able to use a few of the gouges, and I think the small plain chisels and skew cut ones will be fine once the bevels are made more sensible angles.

As always, much appreciate all the shared wisdom for a rookie. I look forward to the day when I can dish it out as much as recieve it: