A very sensible sharpening system..

[raffo]

Surprisingly, these guys are still around, braving the pandemic.

We used to see a lot of roaming street vendors back in the day, plumbers (shouting their services), bakers (on a tricycle, honking a horn), milkmen (from a farm, not bottled; we used to buy two liters every morning), photographers in the parks (they'd take your picture and develop it on the spot, even use colored pencils to give your image some color). There were other street vendors, their wares from traditions as far back as colonial times from the 17th century.

 

[D_W]

Interestingly, in PA in the 80s, a lot of these guys were around (not the plumbers, but traveling picture folks, artists offering to draw a still of you while you wait). I haven't seen them in a long time, and not sure why.

(I grew up in Gettysburg, a tourist town).

Early in youtube, I saw an interesting setup in india or pakistan with a guy riding a bike and some provision to use it either riding or grinding. He could ride it to a spot, disengage the drive and engage the grinding wheel and then grind, and then ride away to greener pastures later.

Milkmen left where I grew up around the 1960s or so. They would bring you processed milk, but if you had cows, they would also take pails from your doorstep (sort of an exchange). I'd guess labor costs and food storage standards eliminated those pails (They had a top on them - like this one - without the kitschy scene).
https://www.etsy.com/sg-en/listing/609415834/antique-milk-can-vintage-milk-jug-metal
At least the defacers don't just target hand saws. These things were relegated to stools outside the front door by the time I was a kid. I find the fact that some are listed for hundreds of dollars (just plain with fresh bright metallic paint) a little ridiculous as they're rusting away everywhere).

 

[D_W]

Yeah I never purposely dull and edge unless there are chips I need to remove.

I think he may have, but there is a school of folks who like to try to sharpen burr free, and one of the methods for it is jointing an edge and working up to it without ever raising a burr. I don't really get it (it's just as easy to create a burr and then remove the damage from the burr with subsequent steps if a really fine edge is needed.

 

[Jacob]

That was my mother too when I first sharpened her knives. I don't go as sharp on hers as I do on my own but she can handle a sharp knife better now.
I have lots of knives and sharpen them in different ways according to how and what they are used for. My general purpose kitchen knives for instance get sharpened on an "Anysharp" followed by a steel to refine the edge and remove any burr. People may scoff but it gets a knive very sharp, very quickly and the coarse edge it gives is excellent for slicing meat. I find I actually prefer that type of edge for my boning knives, I tried sharpening them to a mirror like razor edge that would hang a hair no trouble, problem is it slips in the meat and doesn't bite and as soon as you nick a bone the edge is ruined, I'll take the anysharp edge any day for that task.

I've been sharpening the same kitchen knives for years just the same but without the Anysharp, just a steel.
At least one of them is 2nd generation possibly 3rd generation and were done with a only steel too. My steel is newish, the old one was worn smooth. Edge coarse enough for meat, fine enough for even the most fragile tomato!
No idea why knife sharpening seems to be an issue!
Serrated edge no prob. Had to laugh a bit back when someone was going on about the difficulty of serrated edges - buying diamond hones to fit the radius and similar nonsense. In fact it takes 2 or 3 sweeps with a steel, every now and then, for a lifetime of sharpness.

 

[Rorschach]

I've been sharpening the same kitchen knives for years just the same but without the Anysharp, just a steel.
At least one of them is 2nd generation possibly 3rd generation and were done with a only steel too. My steel is newish, the old one was worn smooth. Serrated edge no prob.
No idea why knife sharpening seems to be an issue!
Had to laugh a bit back when someone was going on about the difficulty of serrated edges - buying diamond hones to fit the radius and similar nonsense. In fact it takes 2 or 3 sweeps with a steel every now and then, for a lifetime of sharpness.

A steel doesn't "sharpen" a knife though. No material is removed.

 

[artie]

In fact it takes 2 or 3 sweeps with a steel every now and then, for a lifetime of sharpness.

I have been under the impression that a steel does not sharpen but straightens out the fine edge of a blade and thereby makes it cut better.

 

[Jacob]

A steel doesn't "sharpen" a knife though. No material is removed.

Have heard that said before and it is not true.
It does sharpen - my knives are sharp and have never been sharpened any other way.
No doubt a bit of metal is removed too - it shows on the blade. I guess the steel works up a bit of a wire edge which gets broken off microscopically. If I'm wrong then my knives will be sharp and last forever!

 

[Rorschach]

I have been under the impression that a steel does not sharpen but straightens out the fine edge of a blade and thereby makes it cut better.

You are correct. It's possible depending on the steel and on the material the knife is made from that it can sort of "cold forge" the edge to be thinner and therefore sharper, think of it like pressing out pastry with a rolling pin, but it shouldn't be removing metal, that's not it's purpose.

 

[Rorschach]

Have heard that said before and it is not true.
It does sharpen - my knives are sharp and have never been sharpened any other way.
No doubt a bit of metal is removed too - it shows on the blade. I guess the steel works up a bit of a wire edge which gets broken off microscopically. If I'm wrong then my knives will be sharp and last forever!

Of course, Jacob would have to have a different opinion on this, contrary to pretty much everyone else

 

[Jacob]

Of course, Jacob would have to have a different opinion on this, contrary to pretty much everyone else

It's not an opinion it's a fact.
Maybe I have a magic sharpening abilities, but I doubt it, it's more likely that everybody else is wrong!

 

[Jacob]

You are correct. It's possible depending on the steel and on the material the knife is made from that it can sort of "cold forge" the edge to be thinner and therefore sharper, think of it like pressing out pastry with a rolling pin, but it shouldn't be removing metal, that's not it's purpose.

This is called "over-thinking". You now have to think about the thin edge of rolled pastry and imagine a few bits becoming detached. They shouldn't be detaching but nobody has told them.

 

[D_W]

Calm down, kids. There are two types of steels, and then their relative hardness counts. Generally, what's sold to consumers is soft knives and a slotted steel - those do actually scrape metal off (and they leave a burr and ultimately an uneven edge).

A really good quality steel that's older and very high carbon ( and high hardness) or a newer high hardness stainless can be polished like a butcher's steel. That's my preference. A good polished steel and good quality knives (the henckels international meet that standard, as do the german made ones - I can't see a quality difference in the spanish or the german knives) meet the standard of steelable but not junk.

There's a trend toward lower carbon stainless steels that have some decent hardenability in terms of properties, but they are less hard and probably a little less wear resistant than the old henckels stuff and the newer Henckels international.

Sooner or later, a knife used with a polish steel should go to the stones, but someone with willpower could steel a knife for years and ignore the fat apex that's forming.

Slotted steels can keep up softer knives forever, but they will start to look ratty. the polished steels are sometimes referred to over here as "butchers" steels, as a lot of butcher work is still done with inexpensive knives but an expensive polished steel. I'm guessing that sooner or later, users of solid steels eat some metal, but I doubt it matters much (anything stainless will go through, anything not stainless - well, lots of people use cast iron pans, anyway).

 

[Rorschach]

It's not an opinion it's a fact.
Maybe I have a magic sharpening abilities, but I doubt it, it's more likely that everybody else is wrong!

Sounds like you are using a rough steel as mentioned below. Not a proper steel in that sense. My steels are really quite smooth and certainly don't remove any metal.

 

[Jacob]

More over thinking going on!
These knives here are Sabatier, stainless and non stainless, and a very old Sheffield stainless. All very sharp, very easily.

 

[Jacob]

Sounds like you are using a rough steel as mentioned below. Not a proper steel in that sense. My steels are really quite smooth and certainly don't remove any metal.

They are proper steels in the sense of sharpening.
Sounds like you sort of proper steels don't work so well according to D_W : steel a knife for years and ignore the fat apex that's forming.

 

[Rorschach]

Oh well, seems I can get rid of all my stones then and just use a steel, guess it will work on a chisel too, if it's removing metal then it will keep a chisel and plane in good nick too. I assume therefore Jacob you never use a stone, and just steel your chisels and planes? Table saw blades too?

 

[D_W]

Sabatier advertises mid mid/high 50s hardness, which is probably in line with the (likely) 440C "ice hardened" friodur knives (I'm guessing friodur used 440c and cryo treated them in nitrogen or dry ice to improve hardness a little - i have their knives, but also a bunch of their stainless razors. The razors are OK, but they're lacking in hardness a little compared to a silver steel razor)

At any rate, the range sabatier quotes is ideal for steeling long term with a polished steel. Any harder than that and there will be chipping problems.

 

[Jacob]

....I assume therefore Jacob you never use a stone, and just steel your chisels and planes? Table saw blades too?

Don't be silly - but by all means have a go yourself, modern sharpening is all about making it difficult and technically "interesting"

 

[D_W]

Oh well, seems I can get rid of all my stones then and just use a steel, guess it will work on a chisel too, if it's removing metal then it will keep a chisel and plane in good nick too. I assume therefore Jacob you never use a stone, and just steel your chisels and planes? Table saw blades too?

In the world of "we'll make anything for anyone now" ceramic rods shaped like steels and diamond electroplate "steels" exist.

the only issue with a steel used with little stoning is if you or a spouse managed to nick edges.

The other side of this discussion is that japanese knives (the inexpensive ones that are something like VG10 and about 61/62 hardness) will hold an edge better than a steeled edge about as often as a steeled knife would generally benefit from honing, and they're a lot lighter.

the better vintage knives have a pretty thin grind. The henckels type with a full bolster top to bottom are very thick and heavy. They are good knives and probably hard to damage because of heft.

(I only looked up the sabatier stats because thiers produced goods aren't as common in the states as solingen-made goods, or now solingen name but made somewhere else).

 

[Rorschach]

Be wary of info on Sabatier, the name is not a trademark and can be stamped on any old rubbish.