A sharpening question or two....

[Zeddedhed]

OK, I know this could get nasty, so flak jacket and hard hat donned here's the situation....

Firstly, I don't need advice on a method or system, so we don't need to go down that road.
What I am interested to know is what type of bench stone will 'cut' the quickest.
I'm currently using an Axi double sided diamond stone (400g and 1000g) with a Veritas MKII guide and am trying to get all my chisels/plane irons back to a repeatable 25 deg bevel.

I'd previously been using a Tormek in the workshop and an old India stone on site and now have tools that whilst sharp are a mixture of all sorts of angles, some not even square to the edge of the iron/blade.

Thus I decided that the next thing to try was a less mechanised approach so purchased the Veritas guide. This can stay by the bench in the workshop and is easily portable if needed on site (or I ma buy another purely to keep in the toolbox)

The issue is that most of the chisels are at more than 25 degs, so getting them back to where I want them is taking ages on the 400g diamond stone.

Would I be better off with a coarse waterstone to start with or coarse Diamond plate? Which will get me there quicker?

The other question relates to the cleaning of diamond stones. I use mine with a spritz of 3 in 1. What is the best way to clean them so they are not clogged?

Answers appreciated - play nice

 

[lurcher]

i clean my diamond stones whith an eraser or a rubber if you was at the secondry modern school
i have also found that they perform even better dry try it you might even like it

 

[wizard]

linishing machine will do it quick

 

[Zeddedhed]

Thanks Lurcher, I'll nick an eraser (I was at Grammar school) from my sons pencil case and give it a go. I'll try it with the stone dry as well.

Wizard, thanks for that but I was hoping to find out which of the many types of bench stones cut the quickest. I can't afford to invest in another machine just et.

 

[Vann]

Would I be better off with a coarse waterstone to start with or coarse Diamond plate?

I believe coarse waterstones work well, but wear way too fast. I use waterstaones: a 1200g and a 6000g. For coarse grinding I use a my old oilstone or my hand grinder (with white wheel).

I have no experience with diamond stones (except for an extremely cheap plastis-backed set that didn't impress).

OK, I know this could get nasty, so flak jacket and hard hat donned....

Wise man

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Graham Orm]

Cheap bench grinder to create your primary, then your choice of stone for the cutting edge?

 

[bugbear]

I've got some 60 grit AlZi, cloth backed, glued flat, 18"x3". Hand work can be fast.

I've also got a hand grind grinder.

No electricity needed.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Coarse diamond fastest. Any thin oily stuff will do to float off the swarf. You don't have to "clean" them as such - just wipe them over after use.
Fastest of all freehand as you can put a lot of force behind it, which you can't do with a jig.

 

[bridger]

to answer your question at face value: what bench stone cuts fastest- I think Jacob is on track: coarse diamond.

however, the answers to use a bench grinder for the gross reshaping you need to do are more to the point. why did the tormek not keep them in form? tormek is a water cooled bench grinder, right? I hear complaints that they are slow, but not that they can't hold an angle. even a slow bench grinder should be quicker than a fast bench stone.

 

[lanemaux]

Hi there Zedd. Have you got a belt sander amigo? you can make a pretty fair fast start with a coarse belt and a tub of water to cool in. Make sure you empty the dustbag first , seriously , important! Freehanding on the belt it is very easy to get an approximate angle , then just stone with your jig as normal from then on. Must say though , I like my hand grinder best and they are fairly cheap on the second hand market or that Bay place.

 

[RogerP]

For a primary bevel on plane irons/chisels I use a 180 grit Zirconia Blue belt on my bench belt sander. Zirconia is designed for metal working but is happy also on wood and lasts a long while.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

OK, I know this could get nasty, so flak jacket and hard hat donned here's the situation....

Firstly, I don't need advice on a method or system, so we don't need to go down that road.
What I am interested to know is what type of bench stone will 'cut' the quickest.
I'm currently using an Axi double sided diamond stone (400g and 1000g) with a Veritas MKII guide and am trying to get all my chisels/plane irons back to a repeatable 25 deg bevel.

I'd previously been using a Tormek in the workshop and an old India stone on site and now have tools that whilst sharp are a mixture of all sorts of angles, some not even square to the edge of the iron/blade.

Thus I decided that the next thing to try was a less mechanised approach so purchased the Veritas guide. This can stay by the bench in the workshop and is easily portable if needed on site (or I ma buy another purely to keep in the toolbox)

The issue is that most of the chisels are at more than 25 degs, so getting them back to where I want them is taking ages on the 400g diamond stone.

Would I be better off with a coarse waterstone to start with or coarse Diamond plate? Which will get me there quicker?

The other question relates to the cleaning of diamond stones. I use mine with a spritz of 3 in 1. What is the best way to clean them so they are not clogged?

Answers appreciated - play nice

The question you ask - which is fastest - cannot be answered simply by pointing to a specific medium. Sharpening is a system, and systems move the goal posts.

First of all, bench chisels work best (that is, hold an edge longer) when they are at 30 degrees and not 25 degrees. So you may want to reconsider all the regrinding you are doing. The system issue here is how you achieve the 30 degrees - is it as a full bevel on the flat, or on a hollow, or will you add a secondary bevel to a lower primary bevel?

The advantage of a honing guide is in adding a secondary bevel, especially a micro (tiny) bevel. This is just a small area of steel to remove, and in this case it really does not matter what type of sharpening media you use (unless you are using some exotic steel) - they will all work much the same. Yes, some will hone a little faster than another, but the honing time is not significant.

Sharpening media only matter when you are removing large amounts of steel, and this will take time no matter what you use. I avoid this trap by hollow grinding. A Tormek does the best job here since you can safely get as close to the edge of the steel without affecting the temper. This leaves the smallest amount of steel to hone (regardless whether it is a secondary bevel or honing on the hollow).

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

.....
The advantage of a honing guide is in adding a secondary bevel, especially a micro (tiny) bevel. This is just a small area of steel to remove, .....

You can also do this freehand if you really want to. The jig holds no advantage as whichever you use you still have to remove the whole bevel sooner or later. The actual amount of work done to the metal is the same, but it's faster and easier freehand. Those painstakingly perfect multiple bevels produced with a jig do look nice though but they don't work any better than the slightly untidy freehand ones.

 

[bugbear]

The advantage of a honing guide is in adding a secondary bevel, especially a micro (tiny) bevel.

Yes - further, the honing guide will allow you to work the same tiny bevel through a sequence of ever finer abrasives, giving a perfect sharp edge.

BugBear

 

[MIGNAL]

400 Grit is still a little fine for reshaping primary bevels. You need something like an extra coarse Diamond stone - 120G. They exist but some are mighty expensive. Anything above 180G and it is going to be slow but of course that depends on how much metal you need to remove.
I use a little hand crank grinder (with a rouge wheel) when needed for removing big nicks. I don't think I've used it in over a year or so.

 

[MIGNAL]

The advantage of a honing guide is in adding a secondary bevel, especially a micro (tiny) bevel.

Yes - further, the honing guide will allow you to work the same tiny bevel through a sequence of ever finer abrasives, giving a perfect sharp edge.

BugBear

Although going through the grits is mostly unnecessary with the faster cutting finer stones. An 8,000G waterstone will very quickly give you a full width micro bevel, even if it's used straight after a 400G stone. I don't have one of the very fine Diamond stones but I suspect that will be similar. Once the shiny glint is established it then becomes a matter of making sure that the 8,000 glint doesn't become too large. You creep back to very near the edge with the 400G.
In fact I used the system for a few years, except that I was going from a hand crank grinder (120G !) straight to an 8,000G waterstone. The system worked perfectly well. Fast, minimum tooling. Only 2 abrasive grits needed.

 

[bugbear]

The advantage of a honing guide is in adding a secondary bevel, especially a micro (tiny) bevel.

Yes - further, the honing guide will allow you to work the same tiny bevel through a sequence of ever finer abrasives, giving a perfect sharp edge.

BugBear

Although going through the grits is mostly unnecessary with the faster cutting finer stones. An 8,000G waterstone will very quickly give you a full width micro bevel, even if it's used straight after a 400G stone. I don't have one of the very fine Diamond stones but I suspect that will be similar. Once the shiny glint is established it then becomes a matter of making sure that the 8,000 glint doesn't become too large. You creep back to very near the edge with the 400G.
In fact I used the system for a few years, except that I was going from a hand crank grinder (120G !) straight to an 8,000G waterstone. The system worked perfectly well. Fast, minimum tooling. Only 2 abrasive grits needed.

Agreed - probably more important when using the older natural/fine oilstones. Arkansas are slow cutters, and ye olde Charnley Forest very slow.

BugBear

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I think you have taken the wrong path, if speed is your goal, in ditching a mechanical grinder for souly hand methods. Logically, if there was a hand only sharpening regimen, that was faster than using some sort of machine at some point, no one wold be using a machine! If you still have the Tormek, I should return to it for restoring the primary bevels on your tools, at 25 degrees. Then you only need a couple of stones, water or oil or whatever, to sharpen. You get many sharpenings before the primary bevel has to be re ground, so it is convenient to just take the fine sharpening stones on site, and save and major re grinding when back at base.

I suspect you have been using the Tormek as the sharpening system, which it will do, but obviously not convenient to carry one to work. I would use (and do use) the Tormek for primary grinding only, and hone with stones. The Tormek is plenty fast enough for grinding primary bevels and very accurate, so I don't know what problems you may have had with your initial experience with yours. If you do still have access to one, I think it might be worth revisiting. They are very good machines when used properly and in a good sharpening system. Speed comes from only having to hone a very thin edge, so any stone will be quick enough for this purpose. If you no longer have the Tormek, I should think some sort of mechanical grinder, belt sander, hand cranked wheel, would still be the way to go, as diamond stones, to do the same job will end up being expensive, and still not as fast, ultimately.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

BTW I forget to add - if you use a diamond (or any) stone freehand you can forget about 25º you just stick to 30 and dip to round the bevel as per Paul Seller's vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM
You don't have to follow it slavishly but it gives you the idea.

 

[Newbie_Neil]

BTW I forget to add - if you use a diamond (or any) stone freehand you can forget about 25º you just stick to 30 and dip to round the bevel as per Paul Seller's vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM You don't have to follow it slavishly but it gives you the idea.

+1 for Paul Sellers method.