3mm Bevel Edged Chisel - Really?

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CStanford":drpqa4hv said:
aahhh, but every drop gets drunk by someone....nothing wasted. It's in constant use, not just sitting there looking nice and shiny.

Money for alcohol - wines and beer - is essentially a complete waste. You're left with nothing other than the ability to prove to someone that you have alcohol in your system with a urine test. My grandmother called it "drinking money". Certainly, some folks get a lot of joy out of it, but it is an unnecessary waste in most senses of the word unless it's free.

I did the road bike thing for a long time when I was single, but I lived next to a five mile loop with offshoot loops that had limited traffic (and it was nice). It probably cost me $2000 to ride 10,000 miles over that time. And none since. It can be cheap, but most people I saw didn't allow it to be. Perhaps it was a little more than $2,000, but whatever. It's not hard to buy $2,000 of wood at one time. (and there are more second and third world manufacturers of bikes now, so it can be *really* cheap). I worked with a guy who had $3,200 worth of wheels on his road bike. I hope he never hits a pothole. (He rides obsessively - maybe to an unhealthy level, so I can't say he's not getting his money's worth - and at 50 pounds heavier than I was when I was single, I'm too fat to ride in the drop position, anyway - and there's *no* other way to ride a bike than drop position or on triathlon-type handles).

We can always sling barbs at each other about money wasted. I've wasted more than my share, and recognize there are things that are a complete waste to me (french pots, wine, expensive cuts of meat for regular occasions, granite counter tops, expensive clothes) that other people value highly.

If someone wants to buy 100 pounds of malleable cast iron tools, and the pinch pennies using white pine, that's fine, I guess. I wouldn't want to do it. As much as I like to do the things that I like to specifically do, I can't imagine being that interested in someone else dictating what I should like or not like.

At the same time, who is really hurt by bad advice? (at least advice that is a bad fit for someone based on what they want to do or will want to do). Beginners, I suppose. But beginners don't usually come into the hobby with a specific goal in mind, and they usually want to buy themselves up a level or two because the paint by numbers thing can be had. (buy tool X, set it up like Y). As opposed to what I'd suggest, which is find an old try plane, an old jack plane (wood) and a stanley 4 and make a new wedge for the two old wooden planes and refit anything that needs it. That's not very practical advice for a newbie.

All that said, I've seen just as many examples of the "wood stash" that costs the owner of the wood stash money. I can think of at least half a dozen widows who have sold the stashes of their husbands off, or retirees who are still sitting on theirs because they wasted money on buying it and building the space to store it, and now they are finding out it isn't worth what they paid. My MIL, who hears me talk about how hard it is to get nice wood, called yesterday about a guy near her house who is retiring from architectural work. Somewhere over the years, he acquired a bunch of exotic wood and built a building that had under floor climate controlled storage to stash his best stuff. Nobody wants it.

Just about the only way you can be guaranteed to not waste money is not to spend it at all.

And if anyone can afford to spend money on 100 pounds of new cast iron tools, I'll bet they could afford the wood if they really wanted it. There aren't too many who buy the french pot and then can only afford a hot dog. They eat the hot dog by choice.
 
D_W":1wdjnb3k said:
Just about the only way you can be guaranteed to not waste money is not to spend it at all.

Do you by any chance have ancestors from Northern England? Lancashire or Yorkshire, perchance?

(Sign over the door of a corner shop in a small Lancashire mill town, "Gerrit spent. They dunt pu' pockets i' shrahds" Translation - Get it spent. They don't put pockets in shrouds.)
 
Jacob":2hh32fmd said:
Bluekingfisher":2hh32fmd said:
Jonny - If you like em' buy em'. There are detractors who will say you are wasting your time or money buying tools you will not regularly use. And...................their point is?....
The point is; if it's just doing woodwork that you are interested in these expensive ornamental tools are rarely necessary. It's up to you don't let us stop you frittering your money away! :lol:

I don't believe you, coming on here, bumming and bragging of your, not one but two expensive road bikes, AND THEN, rubbing salt in the wound with your not so subtle mention of your mahoosive musical instrument collection.........sheesh, some folk. :roll: :wink:

As Derek put it, a case of priorities.

David
 
Cheshirechappie":1dpa4xgb said:
D_W":1dpa4xgb said:
Just about the only way you can be guaranteed to not waste money is not to spend it at all.

Do you by any chance have ancestors from Northern England? Lancashire or Yorkshire, perchance?

(Sign over the door of a corner shop in a small Lancashire mill town, "Gerrit spent. They dunt pu' pockets i' shrahds" Translation - Get it spent. They don't put pockets in shrouds.)

No, they're a bunch of germans and swiss-germans (that's what we call them here, swiss from the german speaking area of switzerland).

Not the urban types, but the rural types, and they're as stingy as you can imagine. Or as a coworker of mine used to say "they can deprive themselves of all pleasure without any trouble".

I'm not as stingy as them, not close, but I guess I'm a lot more frugal than the average person in the city where I live (Pittsburgh, Sheffield of the US, whatever you'd like to call it). I drink a few beers from time to time, but they come out of a box or case, and not out of a tap, and I leave wine drinking to my wife and encourage her choice of sweet (cheap) wines. I like liquor and a dry red, but not as much as I like the money they cost.
 
Of course, in a commercial sense, all money spent on a hobby - be it golf, tennis, cycling, fishing, woodwork, sailing, whatever - is wasted.

It brings nothing but pleasure. :D

BugBear
 
D_W":29nmaalb said:
CStanford":29nmaalb said:
aahhh, but every drop gets drunk by someone....nothing wasted. It's in constant use, not just sitting there looking nice and shiny.


All that said, I've seen just as many examples of the "wood stash" that costs the owner of the wood stash money. I can think of at least half a dozen widows who have sold the stashes of their husbands off, or retirees who are still sitting on theirs because they wasted money on buying it and building the space to store it, and now they are finding out it isn't worth what they paid. My MIL, who hears me talk about how hard it is to get nice wood, called yesterday about a guy near her house who is retiring from architectural work. Somewhere over the years, he acquired a bunch of exotic wood and built a building that had under floor climate controlled storage to stash his best stuff. Nobody wants it.

You mean you actually sit and converse with SWMBO's mother on the subject of procuring timber?

You are indeed a true enthusiast.

David
 
Bluekingfisher":fp3g3s73 said:
D_W":fp3g3s73 said:
CStanford":fp3g3s73 said:
aahhh, but every drop gets drunk by someone....nothing wasted. It's in constant use, not just sitting there looking nice and shiny.


All that said, I've seen just as many examples of the "wood stash" that costs the owner of the wood stash money. I can think of at least half a dozen widows who have sold the stashes of their husbands off, or retirees who are still sitting on theirs because they wasted money on buying it and building the space to store it, and now they are finding out it isn't worth what they paid. My MIL, who hears me talk about how hard it is to get nice wood, called yesterday about a guy near her house who is retiring from architectural work. Somewhere over the years, he acquired a bunch of exotic wood and built a building that had under floor climate controlled storage to stash his best stuff. Nobody wants it.

You mean you actually sit and converse with SWMBO's mother on the subject of procuring timber?

You are indeed a true enthusiast.

David

They live fairly close to Hearne and a bunch of amish and mennonite mills. Plus, there was a guy who had an internet advertisement a few minutes from their house claiming that he had a lot of air dried apple. I had them scope out the place. :) I can't subject myself to hearne's specialty prices, but from time to time they have something small that nobody else has, and it's a good excuse to get out of the house if we're there on a holiday.

It (the air dried apple thing) turned out to be a dead lead, or maybe it was a bait and switch. The same guy who advertised it is the one who built some underfloor vault for the wood he can't sell. I did, in fact, just get a call two weeks ago where the guy is begging anyone who he meets to find someone who will buy his stash. (by his prices, he's really not ready to sell it, which I relayed to her to tell him).

The in-laws do have some woodworking utility!!

My mother brings me turning blanks sometimes, too. Even though I don't turn.
 
D_W":343lcugo said:
Cheshirechappie":343lcugo said:
D_W":343lcugo said:
Just about the only way you can be guaranteed to not waste money is not to spend it at all.

Do you by any chance have ancestors from Northern England? Lancashire or Yorkshire, perchance?

(Sign over the door of a corner shop in a small Lancashire mill town, "Gerrit spent. They dunt pu' pockets i' shrahds" Translation - Get it spent. They don't put pockets in shrouds.)

No, they're a bunch of germans and swiss-germans (that's what we call them here, swiss from the german speaking area of switzerland).

Not the urban types, but the rural types, and they're as stingy as you can imagine. Or as a coworker of mine used to say "they can deprive themselves of all pleasure without any trouble".

I'm not as stingy as them, not close, but I guess I'm a lot more frugal than the average person in the city where I live (Pittsburgh, Sheffield of the US, whatever you'd like to call it). I drink a few beers from time to time, but they come out of a box or case, and not out of a tap, and I leave wine drinking to my wife and encourage her choice of sweet (cheap) wines. I like liquor and a dry red, but not as much as I like the money they cost.

Ah! Fair enough - the surname 'Weaver' suggested a Lancashire or Yorkshire heritage. There was a huge cloth trade in the 1800s and early to mid 1900s, cotton in Lancashire and wool in Yorkshire, and many of them were not paid much. Poverty was something they knew a lot about, especially during the not infrequent slumps when there was less work about - no work meant no money, with the only safety net being the Workhouse. Many emigrated at such times seeking a better life, with America and Canada being prime destinations (Australia and New Zealand, too). People brought up in those circumstances tended to remember, and if they did manage to save a few pounds, they set it aside for a 'rainy day' - they didn't fritter it away on trivial stuff. Thus, there grew up the long-held tradition that many Northerners are tightwads, a tradition some like to maintain. Allegedly.

If the agricultural wages and conditions of German-speaking Switzerland was anything like that of rural England during the 19th century, many would be in about the same condition as the Northern millworkers, a lot of whom were displaced from the land and came to the mill towns out of desperation rather than choice. I can certainly see how there might be parallels in their attitudes to money.
 
bugbear":274kka95 said:
Of course, in a commercial sense, all money spent on a hobby - be it golf, tennis, cycling, fishing, woodwork, sailing, whatever - is wasted.

It brings nothing but pleasure. :D

BugBear


Reminds me of George Best when he said "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
 
Cheshirechappie":2ukcejuv said:
Ah! Fair enough - the surname 'Weaver' suggested a Lancashire or Yorkshire heritage. There was a huge cloth trade in the 1800s and early to mid 1900s, cotton in Lancashire and wool in Yorkshire, and many of them were not paid much. Poverty was something they knew a lot about, especially during the not infrequent slumps when there was less work about - no work meant no money, with the only safety net being the Workhouse. Many emigrated at such times seeking a better life, with America and Canada being prime destinations (Australia and New Zealand, too). People brought up in those circumstances tended to remember, and if they did manage to save a few pounds, they set it aside for a 'rainy day' - they didn't fritter it away on trivial stuff. Thus, there grew up the long-held tradition that many Northerners are tightwads, a tradition some like to maintain. Allegedly.

If the agricultural wages and conditions of German-speaking Switzerland was anything like that of rural England during the 19th century, many would be in about the same condition as the Northern millworkers, a lot of whom were displaced from the land and came to the mill towns out of desperation rather than choice. I can certainly see how there might be parallels in their attitudes to money.

In writings left behind from my ancestors, it's clear they were chased for not being catholic. But they weren't from the palatinate as a lot around here were (the pennsylvania dutchies, which may be a foreign concept in the UK) - those folks were more poor, with some of the older folks in the community walking into the woods and starving to death intentionally to save resources for younger community members. All of them had an extreme distrust for governments and lived as close to self sufficient (congregating among other like minded folks) as possible, which probably lasted until the second world war, but even after that, many of the type still tried to be self sufficient. Doing absolutely everything yourself on site is a good way to work all the time and be poor. My relatives would not fight in the revolutionary war, either, they didn't trust any governments and were forced to either go to jail or haul supplies in non-war areas, so they hauled supplies.

Strange thing, all of our ancestors, they were a lot tougher than us!! Somewhere along the way, one of ancestors became a physician in the mid 1800s, but his descendants went right back to the farm and a life of pleasure from work rather than pleasure from play. Something the amish believe in. The folks you mention sound like they have something in common, except my relatives could never hold a job where they had a boss, and so they didn't as soon as they were old enough to acquire their own land.
 
Jacob":1rnzi60v said:
Two.
One 12 year old Dawes Galaxy tourer - a heavy bike for touring and carrying camping gear etc. Also does for trails to some extent
One light road bike for day rides, audaxes etc. It's called an "Audax" bike which means light weight tourer, not quite a road racing bike.
Both get used a lot and neither are ornaments!

PS if you wanted to catch me out as a gear freak you should have asked bout my musical instrument collection! :oops:

Snap on the Galaxy. Except mine's now about 36 years old.

I haven't used it much this year, but it was fully rebuilt the Christmas before last. I'll put a pic in the General Chat section tomorrow, if the weather is good enough. Still the same frame & handlebars, seatpost & saddle... :)
 
Hi

I do own a couple of 3mm and a 1.5 mm chisels and use then when scribing joints over shoulders, in the joinery workshop I started in we had a tennoning machine but no scribing cutters so we cut all of our scribes by hand. A real pane when you had a 16 pane internal door to knock out in 10 hrs.

I should probably have bought a bunch of in/out cannal gouge chisels................I always get the two mixed up but with a 3mm and 1. something chisel I could cut away a scribe over any molding profile (even in hardwood piece to be clear finished) quite well.

Probably not good enough for fine furniture work, but another suggestion for the use of a tiny chisel?????

Cheers

Ed
 
D_W":1n3fikjc said:
CStanford":1n3fikjc said:
aahhh, but every drop gets drunk by someone....nothing wasted. It's in constant use, not just sitting there looking nice and shiny.

Money for alcohol - wines and beer - is essentially a complete waste. You're left with nothing other than the ability to prove to someone that you have alcohol in your system with a urine test. My grandmother called it "drinking money". Certainly, some folks get a lot of joy out of it, but it is an unnecessary waste in most senses of the word unless it's free.

I did the road bike thing for a long time when I was single, but I lived next to a five mile loop with offshoot loops that had limited traffic (and it was nice). It probably cost me $2000 to ride 10,000 miles over that time. And none since. It can be cheap, but most people I saw didn't allow it to be. Perhaps it was a little more than $2,000, but whatever. It's not hard to buy $2,000 of wood at one time. (and there are more second and third world manufacturers of bikes now, so it can be *really* cheap). I worked with a guy who had $3,200 worth of wheels on his road bike. I hope he never hits a pothole. (He rides obsessively - maybe to an unhealthy level, so I can't say he's not getting his money's worth - and at 50 pounds heavier than I was when I was single, I'm too fat to ride in the drop position, anyway - and there's *no* other way to ride a bike than drop position or on triathlon-type handles).

We can always sling barbs at each other about money wasted. I've wasted more than my share, and recognize there are things that are a complete waste to me (french pots, wine, expensive cuts of meat for regular occasions, granite counter tops, expensive clothes) that other people value highly.

If someone wants to buy 100 pounds of malleable cast iron tools, and the pinch pennies using white pine, that's fine, I guess. I wouldn't want to do it. As much as I like to do the things that I like to specifically do, I can't imagine being that interested in someone else dictating what I should like or not like.

At the same time, who is really hurt by bad advice? (at least advice that is a bad fit for someone based on what they want to do or will want to do). Beginners, I suppose. But beginners don't usually come into the hobby with a specific goal in mind, and they usually want to buy themselves up a level or two because the paint by numbers thing can be had. (buy tool X, set it up like Y). As opposed to what I'd suggest, which is find an old try plane, an old jack plane (wood) and a stanley 4 and make a new wedge for the two old wooden planes and refit anything that needs it. That's not very practical advice for a newbie.

All that said, I've seen just as many examples of the "wood stash" that costs the owner of the wood stash money. I can think of at least half a dozen widows who have sold the stashes of their husbands off, or retirees who are still sitting on theirs because they wasted money on buying it and building the space to store it, and now they are finding out it isn't worth what they paid. My MIL, who hears me talk about how hard it is to get nice wood, called yesterday about a guy near her house who is retiring from architectural work. Somewhere over the years, he acquired a bunch of exotic wood and built a building that had under floor climate controlled storage to stash his best stuff. Nobody wants it.

Just about the only way you can be guaranteed to not waste money is not to spend it at all.

And if anyone can afford to spend money on 100 pounds of new cast iron tools, I'll bet they could afford the wood if they really wanted it. There aren't too many who buy the french pot and then can only afford a hot dog. They eat the hot dog by choice.

Setting up a stupendous woodshop and never really working wood. Buying expensive cookware and never really cooking. Setting up a home brew system and never really brewing. Buying expensive cycling equipment and riding 20 miles a week. Or doing any of these things to a level disproportionately less than the investment in whatever "kit" one deems is required.

That's all I'm talking about. If shopping is the real hobby then so be it. If that rankles somebody on an essentially anonymous forum then I would say the problem lies with person who somehow feels insulted or slighted. A chord must have been struck I guess.
 
CStanford":8dqv8kto said:
Setting up a stupendous woodshop and never really working wood. Buying expensive cookware and never really cooking. Setting up a home brew system and never really brewing. Buying expensive cycling equipment and riding 20 miles a week. Or doing any of these things to a level disproportionately less than the investment in whatever "kit" one deems is required.

That's all I'm talking about. If shopping is the real hobby then so be it. If that rankles somebody on an essentially anonymous forum then I would say the problem lies with person who somehow feels insulted or slighted. A chord must have been struck I guess.

I'm a moderate keyboard player, no more (although I don't normally have to pay for much beer in a pub with a piano :D ).

But I own a Hammond C3, which many people deem one of the all time great musical instruments. It (or the identical B3) was used by many, truly great players (google, if you like).

Do I "deserve" it? No.

Does my standard of playing require all that it can do? No.

Have I ever come close to its limits? No.

Do I get more pleasure out of playing my C3 than anything else I've ever played? Oh yes.

That last one, for me, over rides all the others, and would still be true if I only played it once a year.

BugBear
 
Yes, I'm familiar with the instrument.

There's just a good bit of difference between A Musical Instrument and the whole array of equipment that goes along with the other things I mentioned.

If you felt the need to own three or four, and only played rarely, then that would obviously be ridiculous to anybody with any common sense at all.
 
....
Charles, ask Jacob what his Audax costs new. I'll eat your shorts if it does not cost new a lot more than new set of LN #4, #5 1/2, #7, full roll of LN chisels, #60 1/2 block plane, and a couple of LN saws. ....
About £1200 ISTR. Wouldn't buy your tool list. Eat the shorts!
Titanium frame, carbon forks, very nice ride, gets a lot of use - non of that "little used, original box" as per a lot of the ornamental tools people buy.
 
Jacob, is that what you paid a few years back, or is that the current list price? I gather that it is 50% higher than your figures currently. :wink:

LN #4 £231.28
LN #5 £250.55
LN #7 £327.64
LN #60 1/2 £127.20
LN Tenon Saw £134.90
LN Dovetail Saw £96.36

TOTAL: £1167.93 (Axminster prices)

With the extra 50%, you could have a bunch of LV tools as well! :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Jacob, is that what you paid a few years back, or is that the current list price? I gather that it is 50% higher than your figures currently. :wink:

LN #4 £231.28
LN #5 £250.55
LN #7 £327.64
LN #60 1/2 £127.20
LN Tenon Saw £134.90
LN Dovetail Saw £96.36

TOTAL: £1167.93 (Axminster prices)

With the extra 50%, you could have a bunch of LV tools as well! :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek
Slightly more now http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s21p2868 but this is not an expensive bike. A lot of aspiring (and perspiring) newbies would pay a lot more and do a fraction of the mileage. Not unlike the fancy tool market - they'd be disappointed to find that all that cash made almost no difference to their performance! In fact there are a lot of expensive bikes around which don't get much use at all.
 
CStanford":1l85nvi3 said:
Setting up a stupendous woodshop and never really working wood. Buying expensive cookware and never really cooking. Setting up a home brew system and never really brewing. Buying expensive cycling equipment and riding 20 miles a week. Or doing any of these things to a level disproportionately less than the investment in whatever "kit" one deems is required.

That's all I'm talking about. If shopping is the real hobby then so be it. If that rankles somebody on an essentially anonymous forum then I would say the problem lies with person who somehow feels insulted or slighted. A chord must have been struck I guess.

Who was rankled on here? I missed that part. Or is that a straw person?

I was making more of a point that lots of things (like alcohol and expensive food) are at least as big of a waste as buying tools and not using them. Probably bigger. I've seen it even on woodworking boards, cry poor and then boast about dinner and wine.

Not a harmonious combination.
 
Jacob":3aouh5dj said:
Jacob, is that what you paid a few years back, or is that the current list price? I gather that it is 50% higher than your figures currently. :wink:

LN #4 £231.28
LN #5 £250.55
LN #7 £327.64
LN #60 1/2 £127.20
LN Tenon Saw £134.90
LN Dovetail Saw £96.36

TOTAL: £1167.93 (Axminster prices)

With the extra 50%, you could have a bunch of LV tools as well! :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek
Slightly more now http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s21p2868 but this is not an expensive bike. A lot of aspiring (and perspiring) newbies would pay a lot more and do a fraction of the mileage. Not unlike the fancy tool market - they'd be disappointed to find that all that cash made almost no difference to their performance! In fact there are a lot of expensive bikes around which don't get much use at all.

You really need to change your record. Jeeeezzzzzuss! What you might find ridiciculous is neither here nor there. if the man wishes to spend his hard earned on what you call ornament tools, then so what? It may be his desire is to own bling tools to,enhance his woodworking experience, and that is the point of it, the enjoyment. He is not buying because he has to, but because he wants to.

If you are happy bumbling around, fiddling and fettling with 100 year old tools and that makes you happy then that is good enough for me. Some, may not wish to spend their time (often more valuable than the price of the tool) raking around boot fairs or taking that hit or miss shot on an Internet auction site or spend the best part of a day to tune a plane ( if they know how to) ready for work.

In comparison I happen to ride 8 miles every day to and from the train station to get to work come rain hail or shine. I have done for the past ten years, done it on an 89 quid bike from Halfords. Replaced both tyres once, replaced 3 inner tubes, three sets of brake blocks and a new saddle. I reckon I have £120 invested all in. With continued maintenance it has done its job 10 fold and more. would I buy a more expensive bike to make the same journey, no because I have no interest in bikes other than to get me to the station and back. Would I buy a 300 quid LN to pipper about and make a few shavings now and then. Yes I would, because I like taking shavings now and then and I like LN tools. Simples.
 
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