3 Phase Help

[deema]

I’m with @Chief Sawdust Maker. Anyone who isn’t fully competent messing around with 3 phase is simply an idiot asking to die. 415V doesn’t tickle, it kills if you get it wrong. It doesn’t smell, it doesn’t leak creating a puddle of electricity, it doesn’t give you any indication it’s there, it just lurking ready to kill you instantly.
If you can’t afford to get it done by a qualified person, you can’t afford to have it. Dead is dead, you won’t have saved anything.

You wouldn’t be asking how to change the gas pipes in your home which is actually far less dangerous than messing about with single phase never mind 3 phase. So why people think they can without a clue what they are doing mess around with electrics is beyond me.

 

[yngndrw]

I'd advise installing 5 pin sockets / 5 core cable everywhere, rather than 4. Your machines may not need the neutral right now, but you'll be thankful of the provision when you want to install a 230V light on your bandsaw without an extra socket, for example.

 

[Spectric]

When will people realise that an electrician is a skilled job

A proper electrician is a skilled job, don't forget we have the partially trained domestic installers that are only trained to throw wiring into a domestic property and should be kept well away from industrial and three phase machinery.

but you need to balance the load across the phases, which will need to be calculated.

The best option is to keep all single phase outlets on the same phase, this way you can never exceed 230 volts. If you have single phase sockets on different phases then you have the potential for incidents involving 400 volts between the loads connected.

Your machines may not need the neutral right now, but you'll be thankful of the provision when you want to install a 230V light on your bandsaw without an extra socket, for example.

That was the case back in the seventies & eighties but now with the low current demand of LED lights it is often just as easy to use a DIN rail mounted 400 to 24 volt power supply for the light or just a mag light.

 

[Delaney]

You are of course entitled to your opinion on my post and comments.
However I would say that they are neither ignorant or inaccurate
My post makes general points with regards the issues of electrical instillations
The 5 points that you make do not reflect what the post actually said

You don't have to answer to me or anyone else my comments were made with goodwill and experience
I have no control over how they are interpretated

It is ignorant and frankly rude to claim someone does not understand the skills, quality and technical knowledge of electricians, as you did.
People who I’ve worked with for many years.
Sparkies get a good ribbing on site for being the cleanest and always on breaks but no one second guesses their skill level and the technical nature of their work.

Sometimes people have to be slightly unconventional because they are short of funds. You cannot magic money out of thin air and I need to get this workshop up and running asap to start making money. If I don’t I’ll loose everything I’ve spent 3 years working towards.

Just because I’m making investigations into certain things, doesn’t mean I’m going to do them.

That aside, I appreciate your concern for peoples safety. Others have been cautious and mentioned safety concerns as well.
Which I share.
I've made it this far and still alive.

 

[yngndrw]

On safety: DIY work will be done with or without anyone's blessing, that's just the way it is.

I think it's far more productive to educate than to chastise.

 

[deema]

On safety: DIY work will be done with or without anyone's blessing, that's just the way it is.

I think it's far more productive to educate than to chastise.

I’m all for education, but I also know that nobody can know enough to handle 415V by a ‘bit of sketchy’ advise on a forum. Some people on here know what they are talking about, some simply think they do. At 415V your entering the world of ark flash as a real danger, fire and electrocution which in virtually all cases is fatal.
Now I will happily sit with someone and show them and guide them how to install electrics where I know my knowledge and experience is appropriate. But, to offer advise on a forum to someone who may well be highly skilled in other areas but not electrics and has by their questions demonstrated they have absolutely no comprehension of what they are doing is simply ridiculous. To me it’s the same as letting a toddler play with a lighter!

 

[Spectric]

Now I will happily sit with someone and show them and guide them how to install electrics where I know my knowledge and experience is appropriate.

But even once they have done the work how will they test it because I cannot see anyone spending the money on a half decent multifunction tester for one job in there workshop ! Unfortunately far to many accept the switch test, " look it works so must be ok " or " there was no bang or flash so it must be ok " and is so often evidenced by people who just link current with wire CSA and no mention of length or method of installation. This all takes on an even more dangerous stage once they just decide to do their own work on three phase without comprehending the increased risk, more voltage can push more current through the same body resistance, ie electrocution becomes easier.

 

[Delaney]

I’m with @Chief Sawdust Maker. Anyone who isn’t fully competent messing around with 3 phase is simply an idiot asking to die. 415V doesn’t tickle, it kills if you get it wrong. It doesn’t smell, it doesn’t leak creating a puddle of electricity, it doesn’t give you any indication it’s there, it just lurking ready to kill you instantly.
If you can’t afford to get it done by a qualified person, you can’t afford to have it. Dead is dead, you won’t have saved anything.

You wouldn’t be asking how to change the gas pipes in your home which is actually far less dangerous than messing about with single phase never mind 3 phase. So why people think they can without a clue what they are doing mess around with electrics is beyond me.

You cannot possibly be reading my posts of you think I’m going to jerry rig up 3 phase power.

I have clearly stated that any work I do will have to be checked and signed off by a qualified electrician.
And that I have no intention of connecting any of my work to the 3 phase power. I merely wish to set up a board and some sockets, that can then be inspected. I am asking which would be the best way to go about this so I can put together a shopping list. I can then present that list to an electrician to approve or to modify.
Every little bit I can do, the more affordable things become.

Yes you can change an oil filter but no, I wouldn’t attempt to recondition a cylinder head.

 

[Delaney]

I’m all for education, but I also know that nobody can know enough to handle 415V by a ‘bit of sketchy’ advise on a forum. Some people on here know what they are talking about, some simply think they do. At 415V your entering the world of ark flash as a real danger, fire and electrocution which in virtually all cases is fatal.
Now I will happily sit with someone and show them and guide them how to install electrics where I know my knowledge and experience is appropriate. But, to offer advise on a forum to someone who may well be highly skilled in other areas but not electrics and has by their questions demonstrated they have absolutely no comprehension of what they are doing is simply ridiculous. To me it’s the same as letting a toddler play with a lighter!

I know enough to know I should seek advice.

I’ve been wiring plugs all my life. I’ve wired 3 phase sockets, isolators and the motors to my dust extractor. None of which killed me and I was shown how to do so by a commercial electrician.

Putting a board up and breakers etc.. is out of my comfort zone hence why I would never plug it in and hence why I’m seeking advice on an forun that offers people advice.

 

[Delaney]

But even once they have done the work how will they test it because I cannot see anyone spending the money on a half decent multifunction tester for one job in there workshop ! Unfortunately far to many accept the switch test, " look it works so must be ok " or " there was no bang or flash so it must be ok " and is so often evidenced by people who just link current with wire CSA and no mention of length or method of installation. This all takes on an even more dangerous stage once they just decide to do their own work on three phase without comprehending the increased risk, more voltage can push more current through the same body resistance, ie electrocution becomes easier.

It's mostly a case of an electrician checking the quality of the installation, not only the line.
If they see someone has not left frayed wires sticking out and has shown a clear understanding of which numbered phases go where, they will be confident in the person ability to do a simple task.
If the breakers are correct and the board wired correctly (just pull the panel off), they can be assured that it is worth testing.
They can then run a cabal to connect the board to the 3 phase and test the lines.

 

[Spectric]

But unless the electrician has done the design and calcs then no mater how well installed it is, it will not be acceptable. The other issue that applies to good tradesman is that it will be there name on the job and the certificate so you need total confidence in the workmanship of the work you are presented with.

Also it is often easier to do a job start to finish as the end testing is easier, you have done a lot of it during the fit, it is like the guy who wanted his moped fixed, he took it apart and put it in a box thinking he was doing the garage a favour but it took them longer sorting out what was what.

 

[yngndrw]

My understanding is that building control can also sign off on notifiable work.

 

[HOJ]

The best option is to keep all single phase outlets on the same phase, this way you can never exceed 230 volts. If you have single phase sockets on different phases then you have the potential for incidents involving 400 volts between the loads connected.

I thought we were talking about 16A single phase outlets serving fixed machines, not portable tools.

 

[HOJ]

My understanding is that building control can also sign off on notifiable work.

Not a chance on industrial work, they don't do on domestic work either, they would call an electrician in and charge you for it.

 

[Sideways]

Yes.
Do you know how they do it ?
They employ qualified electricians under contract to come and inspect and test your work.
That involves inspection at stages of installation as and when building control and the contractor advise it's needed, and test of the finished job.
Building control decide the charge for doing this, so you pay the subcontracted electricians costs plus.

Even if the person doing the design, installation and test is qualified and supplies calibration certs for the tsst equipment used, if they don't belong to a self cert scheme like NAPIT or NICEIC building control can make up a price and send someone less qualified to decide on their work. It stinks but who's going to gamble the time and money challenging it.

 

[Delaney]

But unless the electrician has done the design and calcs then no mater how well installed it is, it will not be acceptable. The other issue that applies to good tradesman is that it will be there name on the job and the certificate so you need total confidence in the workmanship of the work you are presented with.

Also it is often easier to do a job start to finish as the end testing is easier, you have done a lot of it during the fit, it is like the guy who wanted his moped fixed, he took it apart and put it in a box thinking he was doing the garage a favour but it took them longer sorting out what was what.

I don’t disagree with that.

From past experience however, as long as the test passes, some don't mind what you do.
They didn’t do the installation.

That being siad I want to make sure whatever I do is safe, being as I’m the operator.

 

[Sideways]

Looking for a practical way to help @Delaney to get his new shop going within his limited budget, I wonder if asking an electrician to help with a "temporary" installation might be the way forward.

Choose a 3 phase distribution board that is future proof so money doesn't go to waste.
I'd suggest a Hager or Schneider 3 phase 12 way board. Lots of expansion potential. Room for RCDs. Reputable brands that no electrician can object to. Don't buy an old second hand board. It may not meet todays regulations. It may be possible to get a new old stock item or something cosmetically scruffy and save some money. Electrical equipment gets bought in bulk for big projects and the left over, uninstalled, or maybe replaced for cosmetic reasons before going live can be sold off at the end.

Equip it with a main isolator switch, at least one RCD, a 3phase 32A type C breaker and two 16A equivalents. These components must be the same brand as the board itself and stated by the manufacturer to be compatible with it. Manufacturers will only ever have done thermal testing of their own breakers in their own boards for fire safety.

Install it on a board with a pair of 16 and one 32A interlocked switched sockets right next to it. Interlocked sockets like this are about £30 each, budget brands, or alternatively better brand items sold off as surplus on ebay.
Have two 16 and one 32A extension leads made up at (say) 10m long using H07RNF rubber flex.

The electrician approves the whole idea in advance, does the wiring and connects the board to the mains.
That's about as bare minimum as you can get to make the machines usable and start earning the money to get the permanent wiring laid in.

It's probably still more than £700 but at least very little of the materials portion will be wasted.