1/12th size furniture - I need some advice....

[Jensmith]

Hi, I've joined here because I need some advice.
I've had a look at the forum and there seems to be some useful information around so I'm hoping you can help me.

I'm looking to start making 1/12th scale fireplaces and furniture for dolls houses professionally as a change of career. I'm currently a Landscape Architect but I'm not enjoying it and things are a bit unstable anyway with redundancies in the offing.

I have been making some furniture for my own dolls house already using Jelutong which I have bought in the right sizes and then cut to length but this works out very expensive.
You can see what I have been making here:
http://georgiandollshouse.blogspot.com/

I have been looking for Jelutong suppliers and have found one in Manchester but the size of planks are 1" thick minimum and 6" wide by x length.
The standard supply is rough sawn but this would require planing it down myself. I can get it planed but I'm looking at buying such small quantities (1 or 2 planks) that it may not be economical.

I have two options:

1) find a supply of Jelutong or similar in the right thickness and use the Proxxon KS 230 bench table saw that I have to cut the right widths, but this only cuts up to 9mm thick.
It would be cheaper than the current method but how do I get the bigger pieces needed for a fireplace - up to 3/4in thick?

2) Buy the big planks and cut my own wood to thicknesses from 1/16th up to 3/4".
I would then need the tools to do the job or find someone who could do it for me cheaply.
I think I'd be looking at a bandsaw, planer/thicknesser and then my little table saw once it's down to size.

What I don't know if how much wastage there would be. How much bigger do you have to cut your piece for planing down to size?

Any ideas as to what tools might be suitable for this sort of work? At these sizes they would need to be accurate.

I need to spend as little as possible really to get the results I need for the most profit.

Anyone have any experience in this and any ideas as to what I might need, what brand of tools might be best?

Thanks very much,

Jennifer,

 

[jasonB]

You would generally allow 3mm per face to get from sawn to planed. This is from the sawn sawmill surface, you should be able to get this down a bit comming straight off a tablesaw.

But when you get down to these thicknesses a planer/thicknesser will tend to chew the wood up and spit it out.

You would be better off with a larger tablesaw as this gives a better finish than a bandsaw and could then transfer the work to a thickness sander for final sizing, this way you could cut your timber to say 5/32" on the saw and then sand 1/64" off each side to get 1/8" finish size.

Jason

 

[9fingers]

Welcome to the forum Jennifer

I need to spend as little as possible really to get the results I need for the most profit.

I think this is your main driver. In terms of volume of timber you are going to need you might be best served by finding someone locally to prepare the sections you can't do yourself. Maybe someone who is retired and might have a bit of spare time. I'd do it but I'm too far away (southampton area)

Once you get going and maybe want to buy your own kit, a bandsaw or perhaps a scrollsaw might be the most useful first buy.

There are a number small bandsaws that are pretty grim to be honest but I don't have the experience to know about small quality ones. Proxon stuff is generally good - maybe they do a bandsaw?

hth

Bob

 

[Richard Findley]

Hi Jeniffer,

Welcome to the forum!!

You're always going to be better off if you can machine the timber yourself. This takes a surprisingly long time to do a large batch of timber and so you will be paying someone to do it!

First thing to look at is the timber you are using. I assume you are painting it? I'm unsure of the cost of Jelutong but I know neither of my usual timber merchants sell it which suggests it might be either hard to source (so expensive) or quite rare (so expensive). Out of interest, what are you paying for it (per cubic metre/foot)? It may be worth looking into buying something like Tulip, Lime or even Beech. 1" boards are fairly managable and most decent saws should cut it up without too much trouble.

For equipment Axminster is always my first port of call. I would think for a small workshop a bandsaw, P/T would be managable with, a table saw would be nice for ripping boards and for your mini stuff perhaps a scroll saw or at least when buying a bandsaw make sure it will run smaller blades.

I hope this is of some help to you.

All the best,

Richard

 

[Jensmith]

Out of interest, what are you paying for it (per cubic metre/foot)?

The two prices I have been quoted are £37 cu/ft + VAT for 2" thick by 6" x 12 ft long and £17 cu/ft for 1" thick but the guy was going to get back to me on the actual size of the wood.

Jelutong is expensive and harder to source but it is a hardwood with virtually no grain, is very stable and is easy to cut. It's used a lot in model making etc.
I used to use it at school for making the moulds for vacuum forming.

One alternative is Obeche which is more widely available but has a more distinct grain. Fine if it's painted, which it probably will be for fireplaces.

I was quoted a price for Lime which was £12 cu/ft. This is another alternative.

It may turn out that it's just not feasible initially to buy larger size timber due to the outlay on equipment when I don't actually know if people will want to buy them!

 

[9fingers]

Out of interest, what are you paying for it (per cubic metre/foot)?

The two prices I have been quoted are £37 cu/ft + VAT for 2" thick by 6" x 12 ft long and £17 cu/ft for 1" thick but the guy was going to get back to me on the actual size of the wood.

Jelutong is expensive and harder to source but it is a hardwood with virtually no grain, is very stable and is easy to cut. It's used a lot in model making etc.
I used to use it at school for making the moulds for vacuum forming.

One alternative is Obeche which is more widely available but has a more distinct grain. Fine if it's painted, which it probably will be for fireplaces.

I was quoted a price for Lime which was £12 cu/ft. This is another alternative.

It may turn out that it's just not feasible initially to buy larger size timber due to the outlay on equipment when I don't actually know if people will want to buy them!

As you are seeing, the price varies hugely with thickness. It also varies with length and board width. If you offer to take mixed lengths and widths, the price should come down.

You might even have some luck with taking offcuts from another user who wants much bigger pieces??

Bob

 

[Steve Maskery]

Hi Jennifer, welcome to the forum.

OK, first things first; why, especially, are you using Jelutong? J is a fine, grainless timber that is much admired by carvers and mould-makers. It's not really a readily-available timber from your local timber merchant's.

I would look at Tulipwood. It's also known as Canary Whitewood and American Poplar. Same tree. It's easily worked, inexpensive and widely available. It works easily and takes a painted finish very well.

If you go the bandsaw route, which, for this work, would be quite sensible, choose your machine carefully. Many entry-level bandsaws produce disappointing results, because they are not strong enough to tension the blade properly. That doesn't mean that you have to buy a big machine - there are good small machines out there. My friend-next-door has an ancient Inca and it is excellent. The quality of the blade makes an ENORMOUS difference. Many people here, including me, recommend Tuffsaws. Ian will give you good advice and sell you only what you need. With the right blade, you can get a good finish that needs only a couple of swipes with a bench plane to make it paintable. Just make sure that your bandsaw is set up correctly and it will do all that you ask.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Jensmith]

Proxon stuff is generally good - maybe they do a bandsaw?

Bob

Yes, they do do a micro bandsaw at about £300 but not sure what thickness this cuts up to.

 

[Jensmith]

Hi Jennifer, welcome to the forum.

OK, first things first; why, especially, are you using Jelutong? J is a fine, grainless timber that is much admired by carvers and mould-makers. It's not really a readily-available timber from your local timber merchant's.

I would look at Tulipwood. It's also known as Canary Whitewood and American Poplar. Same tree. It's easily worked, inexpensive and widely available. It works easily and takes a painted finish very well.

If you go the bandsaw route, which, for this work, would be quite sensible, choose your machine carefully. Many entry-level bandsaws produce disappointing results, because they are not strong enough to tension the blade properly. That doesn't mean that you have to buy a big machine - there are good small machines out there. My friend-next-door has an ancient Inca and it is excellent. The quality of the blade makes an ENORMOUS difference. Many people here, including me, recommend Tuffsaws. Ian will give you good advice and sell you only what you need. With the right blade, you can get a good finish that needs only a couple of swipes with a bench plane to make it paintable. Just make sure that your bandsaw is set up correctly and it will do all that you ask.

Cheers
Steve

Thanks Steve,

Jelutong is available for miniature furniture from some dolls house suppliers and as I'd used it before it seemed to be a good option. It is very easy to work with the the lack of grain is ideal for such small items.

I will have a look at tulipwood. I've seen that used for penblanks though not tried it myself yet.

My concern for wood is that not everything will be painted. Some may need to be stained, in which case the grain is important as a large grain would be completely out of scale for a dolls house.

Thanks for the tip with the bandsaw. Any ideas which smaller bandsaw makes are good?

 

[Steve Maskery]

Jen
There is something else you should know. There are two different Tulipwoods!
I would be prepared to bet that the Tulipwood you have seen as pen blanks is quite strong grained with red streaks. Yes? This is a different tree from "commercial" tulipwood, which is quite bland but may have a distinct green tinge with black streaks when it is first cut. An hour in the sun cures that.

Despite having produced the definitive DVD on bandsaws (he says, modestly), I'm actually not that well-up on the range of machines available. I have a Scheppach Basato 5, with which I am generally satisfied. It's big, though; that is its biggest drawback. There are smaller models in the range, I've not used them.

Second-hand Startrites are well-regarded, but may be bigger than you want.
HTH
Steve

 

[Harbo]

I recently made a couple of Dolls Houses using sycamore for the coving, skirting and architrave. It's a relatively cheap hardwood and a good finish can be achieved when cut with a bandsaw. Only minimal sanding was required.

A friend recently found a cheap source of thin strip wood - Costa Coffee stirrers!

Rod

 

[ondablade]

Just some random thoughts.

I've used jelutong to make plugs from which to take glassfibre moulds from, and have to say that apart from its lack of defects it has amazing qualities in terms of lightness/strength, ease of working and finishing.

I can't compare it to the others, but given that your quantities will presumably be quite small i'd be cautious about compromising workability and ease of finishing too much (labour input?) for cost savings on what would presumably be quite small quantities of materials.

Some more thoughts. I'd be wary of thinking in terms of scaling up 'full sized' practices - in that at the smaller scale, and in jelutong there may be alternative methods available.

Picture framers for example may have specialised kit available. e.g. shears for cutting mitres, guillotines for cutting thin/sheet material.

I wonder how the companies that make those small size moulding strips you see on racks at extortionate prices in B&Q and the like produce them? Ditto for picture frame strip.

I wonder if importing ready processed from the east might not be an option - shipping costs should be lower with small quantities.

A friend making kitchens swears by the four sided planer he bought as a major productivity aid that saves hours of slogging with jointer and a thicknesser. He relies on his sliding table saw to create straight edges, and then whacks it through to get both thicknesses and all four faces done in one pass. I've seen smaller scale router powered versions of this advertised in US woodworking mags, but know nothing of how good the kit is.

Whatever route you go i'd for labour and safety reasons not want to be hand feeding small pieces of strip individually on table saws and the like if i could avoid it.

By all means take a wide board close to thickness by resawing on a decent sized and accurate bandsaw. You could then finish decent widths at a time on a big planer, or through wide floor standing belt sander. Then peel/rip strips off it also on the same bandsaw. After that I'd be thinking of doing any further finishing/dimensioning on something which had self feeding capability.

A lot hangs on the variety of strip sections you need to make. Lots of variability and the cost goes mad. On the other hand various widths peeled off a finished board as above in batches might not be too bad.

Which feeds back into your product design. Permit too much variation in materials and sections and you've day one made manufacturing complicated and difficult. This means thinking way ahead to try to create a family of products drawing on the same core expertise, processes and materials.

ian

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Jen...

Welcome to the forum...

Jelutong is used a lot by pattern-makers because of it's close grain and also makes good Rocking Horse heads! It's almost as good as Lime or Basswood for carving, but there are occasionally large resin-pockets in it.)

It's listed here:

http://www.sykestimber.co.uk/

and here:

http://www.sykestimber.co.uk/timber/jelutong.html

I don't know how far you are from Atherstone, Warks, But they do deliver, and usually the charge is included in the price. I have three planks of the stuff I had from them some years ago, and it's in OK condition, so their stock is quality.

Ask for some prices. The more you buy the cheaper it is.

HTH and Good luck

John

 

[antonello]

Hi Jennifer

I have exactly the opposite of your problem, as I have a big Italian combination machine and, as I’m thinking to complete some ship models I started years ago and never finished, I have to cut very thin strips, say 2x5 mm.

I can easily obtain thin planks in this way:

- planing two sides of the plank, so they are square;

- cutting a sheet from the plank withe the table saw: in this way you have two sides planed (you can have three, with the thicknesser). Then, with the table saw, using a good blade with a fair amount of theets, and feeding slowly and carefully, the sawed side will be barely different from that you’ve planed. Of course, you can’t use the fence, as the thin sheet you are cutting must be to the opposite side and kept free, and his thickness must be found by trial and error.

- then again planing of the face you have cut and so on.....

In this way I can obtain planks less than 1 mm thick.

The problem arises if you want four sides planed, as the minimum work height of big thicknessers is about 6 mm, so in this case a drum sander must be used, or a fair amount of what we call “elbow oil”.

So, by my personal point of wiew, your problem can be easily solved with a table saw and a (small) jointer.

Instead of the table saw of course you can use a (small) band saw, wich is also easier to use for a beginner, but generally the table saw has a better finish than a band saw, as it has been said.

And now we come to my problem, wich is to obtain strips from thin planks, the blades and the power of my machne are far too big for this, so I have a question for you:

has the Proxxon KS 230 sufficient power to cut, say 5mm thick beech?

Years ago (many...) I bought a similar thing but the maximum cut was 2 mm balsa....

Please excuse for my English....

Cheers

Antonello

 

[Steve Maskery]

Antonello
If you are using that method, you may be interested in this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp4ZR5WsL9w

Ciao
Steve

 

[Jensmith]

Ian, thank you for your input. You've given me quite a few things to think about.

In terms of variety in sizes, for fireplaces this is realtively limited as I can do most designs with basic sizes of wood.
The complication comes if I start to add detail using mouldings. In order to get the fancy period designs of Georgian and Victorian periods you have to look at either buying in mouldings or making them yourself with a router that has mini cutters.

What I don't know if how the people I can buy them from do them. Do they make them themselves or do they import them from China?
I would ask them but I doubt they would want to give away their secrets to the competition.

Like you say though, I am wary of the issues of scale as we are taking about the finished sizes of wood being tiny.
I have already been advised that using a standard table saw would likely be highly dangerous.

Typical sizes I'd be looking at would be 1/16th thick by 1" wide by 5" long for the mantleshelf.

Then, to get the frame I have been using 3/4" deep by 1/2" wide x 4" long pieces but depending on design this could also be thinner.
ie, if the fireplace is used with a chimney breast then the firplace itself would be max 1/2" thick with the depth for the firegrate or fire created by the chimney breast.

I don't really know where to look to buy from China.

I could go down the whole Proxxon route and buy all their machinery especially designed for miniature work...
they have a mini P/T, mini router, micro bandsaw etc but it would work out very expensive.

To buy a strip of 18" moulding for 1/12 scale you're taking about 90p to £1.20 depending on how fancy it is.

I've bought my wood so far from www.wood-supplies.com as he supplies a huge range of Jelutong stripwood in all sizes but it works out quite expensive.

A strip 3/4" x 1/2" x 18" long is £1.25

He says that he cuts and prepares all the wood in his own workshop and says he supplies many of the professional makers but he must make quite a profit on the Jelutong. I've found slightly cheaper places but they don't stock the variety he does.

Now, what I could do is buy his largest width of wood which is 3", get a strip that is the right thickness so say 1/16th and then cut it down into 1" strips myself using my Proxxon table saw.

3" x 1/16th" x 18" is £2.10
1" x 1/16th" x 18" is £1.40

I could get 3 strips out of the wood (the kerf of the little saw is very fine so there wouldn't be much wastage, I've tested this) which would then cost me about 70p per strip saving 70p on raw materials.

But the saw only cuts up to 9mm so I can't do the same for my bigger 1/2" to 3/4" pieces.

Proxxon do a bigger saw that cuts upto 22mm but at over 3x the price (£350 approx)

My first step is to get some designs made up and see what materials are needed.

In terms of finish, I'm aiming for the fireplaces to look like they are made from plaster or stone so it's a very smooth painted finish, probably using spray paint, though the customer would finish it themselves if it was a kit and for most people this isn't a problem. They would enjoy finishing it as they choose.

 

[Jensmith]

Hi Jennifer

And now we come to my problem, wich is to obtain strips from thin planks, the blades and the power of my machne are far too big for this, so I have a question for you:

has the Proxxon KS 230 sufficient power to cut, say 5mm thick beech?

Years ago (many...) I bought a similar thing but the maximum cut was 2 mm balsa....

Please excuse for my English....

Cheers

Antonello

Hi Antonello,

I only got the Proxxon KS 230 this week but it cut through my test pieces easily, like butter - that was 5mm Jelutong.
I'm not sure about the density of beech compared to Jelutong but it says it will cut wood upto 8-9mm.

You can get a larger saw that cuts upto 22mm and is slightly heavier duty but it costs about £350. The small one is just under £100.

 

[Jensmith]

There is something else you should know. There are two different Tulipwoods!
I would be prepared to bet that the Tulipwood you have seen as pen blanks is quite strong grained with red streaks. Yes? This is a different tree from "commercial" tulipwood, which is quite bland but may have a distinct green tinge with black streaks when it is first cut. An hour in the sun cures that.

Ah! Yes, you are right. I didn't know there were two types

 

[antonello]

.......
I only got the Proxxon KS 230 this week but it cut through my test pieces easily, like butter - that was 5mm Jelutong.
........

Thank you Jen, I think that should be largely sufficient for my needs: and what about the finishing? Is the cut sufficient smooth? (if it is smooth for your purposes, that will be good also for mine....)

Antonello
If you are using that method, you may be interested in this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp4ZR5WsL9w

Ciao
Steve

That's very interesting Steve.

All these jigs are quite simple...............once you've seen them......

Ciao

Antonello

 

[Jensmith]

Thank you Jen, I think that should be largely sufficient for my needs: and what about the finishing? Is the cut sufficient smooth? (if it is smooth for your purposes, that will be good also for mine....)

[/quote]

The cut wouldn't really require much sanding. Just a slight bit on the underside to tidy up.

I was very impressed.