How to fit handrail into newel posts?

[DTR]

Afternoon all,

I am currently replacing my handrails, baserail and balusters, but keeping the original newel posts. For what it's worth, I have reason to believe that the balustrading is not original to the house, which was built in the 50s.

I have just taken out the landing handrail, and I am baffled as to how they got it in. There is a full newel at one end (top of the stairs), and a half-newel at the other end against the bedroom wall. Hopefully my crude drawing will show what I mean:

The handrail was tenoned at both ends into the newels. The handrail is a single length (2m, give or take), and the tenons are about an inch long each. They were not pegged / dowelled into the newels at either end. The mortises are closed, i.e. they are not opened up to the top of the newels to allow the handrail to drop in. I only managed to get the old handrail out by chopping it in half (hammer)

So..... how did the proven bodge-bandits get the ****** thing in, and more to the point how do I do the same?? :? The best thing I can think of is to remove the half newel (it's already off the wall), attach the handrail to the "floating" half-newel, then plug the other tenon into the full-newel at an angle, and slide the half newel sideways into place. If that makes any sense at all....

Thanks in advance

edit: forgot to mention... The new handrail is going to be oak, so I don't want any scarf joints, exposed fixings etc

 

[ColeyS1]

Concentrate on getting one end of the tenon in the mortice first. Angle off the cheek of the tenon until one ends in, then heave push and strain the other newel post over till it pops in.
When I fit stairs I put the handrail and wall newel in at the same time so it's only sliding the newel in position that causes it to be a tad tight ( long cornered)
Edit- I think the latter is what you described



Coley

 

[blackrodd]

You'll find by removing some floor boards, both the full and half newels were fitted at the same time as the handrail,
and will not fiddle in place with the angles involved.
They would have been half lapped or saddle jointed on to the adjacent trimming and trimmed floor joists, and floored around further "trapping" both full and half newels, I expect cut nails were used in the boarding.
You may be lucky and the newels were bolted or screwed, so would come out and just copy the tenons and length of the originals and replace
The only way without changing both full and half posts would be to use the very simple Richard Burgess fixings, link below, figures 25--30.
I personally prefer the former, tried and tested, but in the past have been forced to use the Burbidge bracketry or risk an unhappy Client!
Rodders

http://richardburbidge.com/media/1173/s ... ctions.pdf

 

[Graham Orm]

Piece of cake with these. Cut the old one out, screw these in and drop the new rail into place. Having notched the underside of the rail. Wind up with Allen key.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Zip-bolt-RAKE ... SwNSxVCcDP

Have used them several times, fool proof and quick.

 

[biskit]

Wow they look great Graham, not seen those before. They would have saved me lots of time in the past. (hammer)

 

[Jacob]

Stick longish loose tenons into the newel posts, cut open mortices under the hand rail and drop it on. Plenty of glue. Perhaps something tough for the tenons - beech etc. 18mm thick and say 3/4 of the depth of the hand rail

 

[dickm]

Was just going to suggest loose/false tenons, but the honorable Jacob beat me to it.

 

[Graham Orm]

Loose tenons work but you can't pull them tight.

 

[Jacob]

Loose tenons work but you can't pull them tight.

You make them (and the handrail) a good fit and well lathered with glue, then they don't need pulling tight, but you could perhaps rig up a spanish windlass if you've got it wrong.
You could drill and put in a peg or two but it would hardly be necessary.
I'm talking big loose tenons here; 6 x 3 x 3/4".
Can be done at an angle too.

This is how I did my own staircase a few years ago. I started looking at the various fixings you can buy but decided I could do it better and easier without them. It's still holding together - I staggered down it only 10 minutes ago!

PS I stuck the tenons in their mortices first then fitted the handrails the following day after the glue had set. I imagine trying to do it in one would be a bit of a struggle with things slipping out of alignment and glue going off etc.

 

[Graham Orm]

The zip bolts take about 10minutes per end, glue not required.

 

[Jacob]

The zip bolts take about 10minutes per end, glue not required.

Hmm dunno I just didn't fancy them. I had visions of them working loose etc. Might try them next time (if there is one!).
Part of the attraction of the loose tenons is that they are very strong, but also all just woodwork - with scope for very precise fitting.

 

[Graham Orm]

The zip bolts take about 10minutes per end, glue not required.

Hmm dunno I just didn't fancy them. I had visions of them working loose etc. Might try them next time (if there is one!).
Part of the attraction of the loose tenons is that they are very strong, but also all just woodwork - with scope for very precise fitting.

The time saving is massive Jacob, especially important if you're getting paid for the job. The zip bolts are superb and easy enough to tighten should they come loose. And the big bonus is that they don't require a jig!! :mrgreen:

 

[DTR]

Thanks for the suggestions, chaps. Coley's method would be my preferred, if only I could be certain of being able to angle the thing in. I suppose if I cut the required tenons onto the ends of the new handrail, I've got nothing to lose by trying it. If I can't get it in, then I can just cut the tenons off and move on to Plan B. I'm leaning more towards Jacob's lose tenons rather than the bolts as my second option. To use the bolts I'd have to plug the existing mortises with lose tenons anyway.

The time saving is massive Jacob, especially important if you're getting paid for the job.

...but I'm not getting paid for the job, and I'd have to wait several days for the bolts to turn up! (hammer) :lol:

 

[No skills]

If the new rail is wide enough then Jacobs loose tenon method plus a hd pocket screw to pull it up tight - belt and braces.

 

[DTR]

Coley wins

Concentrate on getting one end of the tenon in the mortice first. Angle off the cheek of the tenon until one ends in, then heave push and strain the other newel post over till it pops in.
When I fit stairs I put the handrail and wall newel in at the same time so it's only sliding the newel in position that causes it to be a tad tight ( long cornered)

I was able to pop the second tenon in by sliding the detached half-newel in from the side.

Thanks again everyone

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

Stick longish loose tenons into the newel posts, cut open mortices under the hand rail and drop it on. Plenty of glue. Perhaps something tough for the tenons - beech etc. 18mm thick and say 3/4 of the depth of the hand rail

^What he said^