French doors - advice on joints and beading

[Mike.S]

I have some traditional flush casement type french doors - 2m x 1.06m x 44mm thick (42" x 78" in old money) overall - each with 8 panes, that need replacing (poor maintenance on my part plus damage from a break in means the bottom rail and stiles have wet rot). They're single glazed, putty o/s, with ovolo beading inside. Having struggled to find a joiner to do it, other than for too many beer tokens I've decided to give it a go myself (time rich DIYer).

To do a direct like-for-like replacement would require my buying a router table (building one for my T11 is on my to-do list) and the ovolo and scribing cutters e.g. like this and this. To avoid this cost and, hopefully, simplify the joinery, I'm wondering whether I could cut simple straight bevels on the door stiles, rails and muntins to mimic the putty. It would look a bit like the outside of the doors made by JonnyD - see 2nd pic down in this post. The scribed joints could, I imagine, be done by saw/chisel.

Glass would be glazed from the inside and then ovolo beading - available off the shelf at my local supplier - applied (glue and pins) from the inside. I'd use a non-setting mastic - perhaps Hodgson's Butyl 66 - to bed the glass.

Doors are to be painted and ironmongery decided but erring towards simple sash lock and those key operated barrel locks that you mortice into the top and bottom of the meeting stiles and s/s butt hinges.

Does this seem like a reasonable approach or daft? If daft then I'll bite the bullet and acquire the table/cutters and even apply the putty (a fiddly task I find)!

Finally, the proposed bottom rail is 165mm - will a single haunched tenon be OK or should it be a double tenon (say 50mm each)?

Guidance/advice would be welcome.

 

[RobinBHM]

Without mould and scribe cutters, the simplest way to construct doors is to make the door stiles and rails square then plant on an ovolo bead to the inside which will form the mould and rebate at the same time. The doors can then be painted so all of the rebates get coated, the glass can then be fitted with a triangular bead on the outside. Lots of beading to do for doors made this way, but if you cut the beading to slightly over finished length, mitre one end of all the beads, then it will be a lot quicker.

It is possible to make doors with an ovolo moulding, then cut a mitre on the mould for the scribe or scribe with a gouge.

A single haunched tenon on the bottom will be fine -I would cut a 50mm haunch so the tenon isnt that side anyway.

If you are using a rebate set for the sash lock dont forget to add 13mm to the overall door frame rebate size and divide by 2 for your overall door width.

 

[dzj]

Without mould and scribe cutters, the simplest way to construct doors is to make the door stiles and rails square then plant on an ovolo bead to the inside which will form the mould and rebate at the same time.

For a one-off project this is sound advice.

 

[Mike.S]

Thank you Robin and dzj.

What you propose is really one step further in simplification - use separate mouldings planted to inside (ovolo) and outside (triangular) of the straight edged frame and muntins. I have a SCMS so hopefully cutting the mitres (several at a time) will not be too time consuming, especially if I accurately make each of the 16 panes to identical dimensions.

My main reason for suggesting a triangular external moulding was concern that water ingress is less likely i.e. one less join but I can see the attractions of separate mouldings.

Robin, I don't understand what you mean by

I would cut a 50mm haunch so the tenon isnt that side anyway

Are you suggesting I make a 115mm tenon (at the top of the rail) and 50mm haunch underneath that (making up the 165mm rail height) or something else?

 

[Jacob]

Bevels in place of mouldings can look good. If the overall geometry is the same you might not even notice the difference. They are used in trad joinery more often than you'd think. Bevel inside, putty out.

 

[RobinBHM]

Thank you Robin and dzj.

Robin, I don't understand what you mean by

I would cut a 50mm haunch so the tenon isnt that side anyway

Are you suggesting I make a 115mm tenon (at the top of the rail) and 50mm haunch underneath that (making up the 165mm rail height) or something else?

Oops! Apols for the typos, that's what you get if you dont proof read.

I meant to say 'so the tenon isnt that BIG anyway'. A haunch of about 1/3 of the tenon width is about the correct size. A haunch of 50mm is about right for the top rail also, since it means there is 50mm of wood beyond the mortice.

Bevels do look good on joinery and work well visually on glazing bars. A quirk is needed for a scribed joint, although a chamfer can be done but needs a masons mitre to work.

 

[Giff]

The French always seem to do their doors this way…so they will be authentic "french doors"

 

[Setch]

I can't offer any helpful advice on the construction, but when you come to for locks, fit the mortice rack bolts into the top rail, not the end grain of the meeting stile. I see countless doors ruined by fitting the bolts in the end grain of the stile, which compromises the m&t joint at the top and bottom of the door, provides a huge ingress point for water, and gives bugger all for the screws to bite into. In addition, any attempt at brute forcing the door results in a split stile, and the stile moves far more in response to changes in weather, resulting in more alignment faults.

 

[Jacob]

Thank you Robin and dzj.

Robin, I don't understand what you mean by

I would cut a 50mm haunch so the tenon isnt that side anyway

Are you suggesting I make a 115mm tenon (at the top of the rail) and 50mm haunch underneath that (making up the 165mm rail height) or something else?

Oops! Apols for the typos, that's what you get if you dont proof read.

I meant to say 'so the tenon isnt that BIG anyway'. A haunch of about 1/3 of the tenon width is about the correct size. A haunch of 50mm is about right for the top rail also, since it means there is 50mm of wood beyond the mortice.

Bevels do look good on joinery and work well visually on glazing bars. A quirk is needed for a scribed joint, although a chamfer can be done but needs a masons mitre to work.

Scribe a bevel or chamfer just the same as a moulding. No quirk or masons mitre needed.

 

[Mike.S]

Robin - thanks for clarifying that; it now makes sense. I've also realised that a small haunch will be required at the top of the top rail (i.e. my example of a 115mm tenon above a 50mm haunch was wrong).

Jacob - yes, I have the choice of either a 45 degree mitre where the bevels join or, my preferred option, to scribe (chisel/gouge) this joint.

Setch - noted; similar situation to when the middle rail tenon of a door gets 'butchered' to accommodate a mortice lock.

All - much appreciated. I now have a clearer idea of what will work and be most straightforward.