Flattening, polishing and friction.

[Jacob]

You can't have too many flattening threads IMHO!
I thought I'd post this as it came up somewhere else and could save someone a lot of bother.
Basically you don't need to flatten and polish to reduce friction (if this is an issue).
Frinstance if you take an old plane and flatten it a bit on say 40 grit it'll be a bit snatchy on the workpiece.
To make it run smoothly you can go straight from the 40 grit to 400 grit. What this does is take off the sharp edges of the scratches (the tops of the ridges) but leaves most of the scratch (the furrows) behind. It'll now slide smoothly over the workpiece. Might even be an advantage as the scratches could hold candle wax I suppose.
NB if you do this it's better if the scratches go straight for and aft rather than across.
Same with a rusty pitted sole - you only need to take off the high points to make it slide nicely, the pits can stay.
Ditto a new plane or chisel with machine marks.

 

[jimi43]

Agree totally! Why else would corrugated planes have sold...the ultimate in coarse scratches.

Along the plane is a given but flattening I would say has to be done to the extent that the rear...front and before and aft of the mouth region are "in the same plane"....... :mrgreen:

Or should it be "on the same plane!!!" :wink:

I don't think that warrants a coat does it Jacob....no....don't think so! :mrgreen:

Jim

PS...of course...the sole will rust like **** with coarse scratches all over it! :wink:

 

[LJM]

Obvious when you think about it! Nice tip, thanks

 

[GazPal]

You can't have too many flattening threads IMHO!
I thought I'd post this as it came up somewhere else and could save someone a lot of bother.
Basically you don't need to flatten and polish to reduce friction (if this is an issue).
Frinstance if you take an old plane and flatten it a bit on say 40 grit it'll be a bit snatchy on the workpiece.
To make it run smoothly you can go straight from the 40 grit to 400 grit. What this does is take off the sharp edges of the scratches (the tops of the ridges) but leaves most of the scratch (the furrows) behind. It'll now slide smoothly over the workpiece. Might even be an advantage as the scratches could hold candle wax I suppose.
NB if you do this it's better if the scratches go straight for and aft rather than across.
Same with a rusty pitted sole - you only need to take off the high points to make it slide nicely, the pits can stay.
Ditto a new plane or chisel with machine marks.

100% Jacob

------------

Your's truly - during his apprenticeship - used to be given the task of loading corrugated plane soles with molten candle wax whenever we were dealing with resinous/sticky timbers such as teak. I used to melt the wax in bulk and spread it roughly into the corrugations and allow it to cool thoroughly before scraping flush with the main surface of the sole. The wax releases steadily and it makes planing awkward timbers less of a chore, plus reduces the time normally spent having to remove resin/sap from your plane during and after use.

Lacking wax, you can always source a lidded container (e.g. a large tobacco tin) and pack it with an old rag before carefully saturating it's contents with mineral oil. DO NOT USE ANYTHING OTHER THAN MINERAL OIL AS YOU CAN BE PRESENTED WITH A FIRE HAZARD IF USING SOMETHING AKIN TO LINSEED OIL. With the open tin nearby you can lightly brush the sole of your plane across it's un-lidded contents and coat it with oil as a means of reducing friction. The same tin can be attached to your workbench by clicking it's base into a spare tin lid of the same type and size. I typically keep such a tin set within the tool well on my bench, but you'll doubtless find a practical means of locating the same type of thing on a bench without a well.

Ensuring a plane's toe, mouth and heel are co-planar is an absolute, but if there's too much concavity present between the three points you can sometimes find yourself with problems planing shorter work elements. If in doubt, leave it out and ask.

Once a sole has been flattened or fresh metal is exposed it should be oiled/waxed immediately to prevent flash rusting. I use either 3 in 1 oil or unscented mineral oil from the chemist/pharmacy and allow it to saturate the newly exposed surface before removing surplus oil. When my children were small I used to pinch their baby oil and the scent never raised any eyebrows at work, as most of us had found the same solution. Although I've nothing against using special preparations, there's no real need to pay through the nose, because inexpensive options will work just as well. Just try to avoid vegetable oils and non-rendered animal fats as they can become rancid and lead to rusting. Bacon rind or fat is a definite no-no due to the salt present.

I hope this helps in some way.

 

[marcros]

did the corrogated soled planes sell well? I am surprised that Lie Nielsen et al havent reproduced them if they were proven to be effective.

 

[bugbear]

did the corrogated soled planes sell well? I am surprised that Lie Nielsen et al havent reproduced them if they were proven to be effective.

I've seen the Stanley claim to reduced friction repeated, but (unusually) it's often in the form "these were claimed to reduce friction".

I don't recall anyone actually doing either a rough "give it a try" experiment or actually measuring the friction.

BugBear

 

[carlb40]

did the corrogated soled planes sell well? I am surprised that Lie Nielsen et al havent reproduced them if they were proven to be effective.

Apparently they make / made one. There is one on ebay ay the moment :shock:

 

[GazPal]

Record produced planes with corrugated soles from 1931 until 1993, so I assume they proved more popular than the #08 which was discontinued in 1982. A 62 year history of manufacture must say something regarding demand and their usefulness prior to being superseded by mechanisation, otherwise they would have been discontinued much sooner.

The best way to uncover differences between the two types of sole is to put them to use side by side, in direct comparison and working the same billet of resinous timber. A plane is more likely to adhere to an underlying surface as it becomes more refined and in spite of the plane being in motion. Stiction is more easily overcome by reducing surface tension and this is where longitudinal corrugation and surface contact reduction come into play when dealing with resinous timbers.

 

[Vann]

did the corrogated soled planes sell well? I am surprised that Lie Nielsen et al havent reproduced them if they were proven to be effective.

All Lie-Nielsen bench planes are available with corrigated bases for $US35 extra (except the No.10¼). I don't know if they're cast or machined corrigations. These are listed in the printed cattledog, as well as online.

I don't believe Veritas or Clifton offer the option.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[GazPal]

did the corrogated soled planes sell well? I am surprised that Lie Nielsen et al havent reproduced them if they were proven to be effective.

All Lie-Nielsen bench planes are available with corrigated bases for $US35 extra (except the No.10¼). I don't know if they're cast or machined corrigations. These are listed in the printed cattledog, as well as online.

I don't believe Veritas or Clifton offer the option.

Cheers, Vann.

I'd expect they mill the corrugations into stock planes in much the same way Record machined their examples.

 

[Graham Orm]

Re-done including quotation below.

 

[Graham Orm]

You can't have too many flattening threads IMHO!
I thought I'd post this as it came up somewhere else and could save someone a lot of bother.
Basically you don't need to flatten and polish to reduce friction (if this is an issue).
Frinstance if you take an old plane and flatten it a bit on say 40 grit it'll be a bit snatchy on the workpiece.
To make it run smoothly you can go straight from the 40 grit to 400 grit. What this does is take off the sharp edges of the scratches (the tops of the ridges) but leaves most of the scratch (the furrows) behind. It'll now slide smoothly over the workpiece. Might even be an advantage as the scratches could hold candle wax I suppose.
NB if you do this it's better if the scratches go straight for and aft rather than across.
Same with a rusty pitted sole - you only need to take off the high points to make it slide nicely, the pits can stay.
Ditto a new plane or chisel with machine marks.

There's always one......and that's me I'm afraid in this instance.

I think you've missed the point completely (pun intended). The point of polishing the back of the blade to a mirror like finish is to get rid of the scratches.....not just to make it slip through the wood. But more importantly, to make the edge of the blade straight and fine.

A sharp edge is where 2 surfaces meet, if one (or both) have scratches on them, then under magnification the edge where they meet will look like a bread knife and will never be as sharp as an edge where 2 highly polished surfaces meet. :wink:

 

[Jacob]

You can't have too many flattening threads IMHO!
I thought I'd post this as it came up somewhere else and could save someone a lot of bother.
Basically you don't need to flatten and polish to reduce friction (if this is an issue).
Frinstance if you take an old plane and flatten it a bit on say 40 grit it'll be a bit snatchy on the workpiece.
To make it run smoothly you can go straight from the 40 grit to 400 grit. What this does is take off the sharp edges of the scratches (the tops of the ridges) but leaves most of the scratch (the furrows) behind. It'll now slide smoothly over the workpiece. Might even be an advantage as the scratches could hold candle wax I suppose.
NB if you do this it's better if the scratches go straight for and aft rather than across.
Same with a rusty pitted sole - you only need to take off the high points to make it slide nicely, the pits can stay.
Ditto a new plane or chisel with machine marks.

There's always one......and that's me I'm afraid in this instance.

I think you've missed the point completely (pun intended). The point of polishing the back of the blade to a mirror like finish is to get rid of the scratches.....not just to make it slip through the wood. But more importantly, to make the edge of the blade straight and fine.

A sharp edge is where 2 surfaces meet, if one (or both) have scratches on them, then under magnification the edge where they meet will look like a bread knife and will never be as sharp as an edge where 2 highly polished surfaces meet. :wink:

There's always a sense of logic about crazy sharpening, which is why it persists. But reality is different; less interesting but also less problematic.
You really do not need to polish the whole of the face. It doesn't even need to be perfectly flat. There's a thread here which covers it pretty well flattening-chisel-backs-with-lapping-film-t68506-225.html
This is as much flattening and polishing you need on a typical chisel face:

If the face isn't sufficiently concave you have to lift the pressure on handle a bit to get a good flat area behind the edge. Think of "ruler trick" but without the ruler (which makes it a lot easier). You don't actually lift, it's more a case of applying more pressure where it counts.

 

[Gary Morris]

Jacob, thank you, I've been trying to get some old chisels sharp and I find that I get the exact picture as your one shows, but finding it quite a task to get the whole blade polished as there appears to be slightly higher points on the front and sides. What you say about taking the high points off, leaving grooves makes sense. It's made me very happy as I've been sitting at the kitchen table, night after night with the pc in front of me, reading posts and watching tv whilst rubbing away, I will now be able to watch the whole episode.

Gary

 

[Jacob]

.... to get the whole blade polished ,,,,,

..,,,,is a complete waste of time and makes subsequent sharpening more difficult - you lose the slight concavity which most chisels seem to have.
Ignore the shamans of sharpening and don't spoil your chisels with pointless polishing!!

I'm not saying anything new, e.g. there's a good article here
http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2011 ... p-lapping/

PS I think the shamans of sharpening have spread great deal of misinformation and wasted thousands of hours of peoples time and spoiled a lot of tools in the process.
But we are finding our way "back to the garden" :lol: Keep it simple.

 

[matthewwh]

I agree, I'm dubious about lifting a chisel to hit the underside of the edge though - fine to begin with but eventually you will end up with a bump.

 

[Jacob]

I agree, I'm dubious about lifting a chisel to hit the underside of the edge though - fine to begin with but eventually you will end up with a bump.

No bumps involved. :roll: You don't actually lift (you can't see air underneath) but you shift the pressure towards the edge.
As I say - the logic of crazy sharpening is very plausible but the reality of normal sharpening is quite different - easier to do (by far!) but more difficult to rationalise. Craft skills as a whole are like that - in the end can only be acquired by doing it, not by applying a set of procedures and rules.
What we have with crazy sharpening is people talking themselves out of doing it - convincing themselves they are useless and blindly doing stupid things like polishing and flattening the whole face of a chisel because they have been told to do it by a self-claimed expert!!

I'm not saying anything new, e.g. there's a good article here
http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2011 ... p-lapping/

Whereas this stuff here is complete bolllox http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techn ... g_a_chisel

 

[Peter T]

I'm not saying anything new, e.g. there's a good article here
http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2011 ... p-lapping/

I notice in his mortice chopping video he's using a Ray Iles chisel with a 20 degree primary bevel and a, probably, 35 degree secondary bevel!!

 

[Jacob]

I'm not saying anything new, e.g. there's a good article here
http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2011 ... p-lapping/

I notice in his mortice chopping video he's using a Ray Iles chisel with a 20 degree primary bevel and a, probably, 35 degree secondary bevel!!

Yeah well nobody's perfect!! His marking out is a bit sloppy too.

 

[Peter T]

I'm not saying anything new, e.g. there's a good article here
http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2011 ... p-lapping/

I notice in his mortice chopping video he's using a Ray Iles chisel with a 20 degree primary bevel and a, probably, 35 degree secondary bevel!!

Yeah well nobody's perfect!! His marking out is a bit sloppy too.

Yes, even I thought he made a bit of a meal of it!