Bench Top with clamps/pegs?

[LancsRick]

Just wondering if there were any favoured/tried-and-tested approaches on here to putting clamping aids on a benchtop? The bench I've got is just a plywood top (2x 18mm, one sacrificial) which doesn't let itself to the easy securing of workpieces. Clearly there are many things I could do involving a pegboard style approach or fitting lips to the top with through-holes for screwed clamps, but I'm guessing many people have walked this road before me and will have some suggestions.

Area is approx 7ft x 4ft.

Thanks!

 

[ED65]

Is the total thickness of the top 18mm Rick?

 

[LancsRick]

Nope, 2x 18mm giving 36mm, onto a 3"x4" timber frame with horizontal slats.

 

[AndyT]

Have a look at this video, in which Roy Underhill demonstrates a selection of clamping options which could be useful.

http://video.unctv.org/video/2365326358/

I do sometimes use a simple piece of ply with a triangular cut-out and a matching wedge to hold a workpiece on edge, on top of the bench.

(Edited to correct link.)

 

[ED65]

Okay well at that thickness traditional holdfasts are an option, that would be a good start. I've also seen some recent builds where dog holes were drilled large enough to allow the passage of the bars on F-clamps or quick clamp which is another quick clamping option.

 

[MusicMan]

I've had 19 mm holes for Veritas bench pegs for many years and find them very useful, in combination with an end vice (home-made, continental style). I've used some screw down holdfasts (Sears, Wolf) and though they were usable they didn't grip very well.

I've recently got a couple of the new holdfasts from Workshop Heaven, and am a total convert. They grip very well, and using the trick of using a flat batten with a triangular 90 deg rebate (google holdfast planing) work is held beautifully solidly and flat for planing. I don't use the end vice any more for this.

AndyT's wedge trick above is new to me but looks incredibly useful for holding pieces on edge.

Keith

 

[LancsRick]

That's a new one for me Andy, thanks for the idea!

As wonderfully traditional as holdfasts are, the handforged ones aren't cheap, and my understanding is that the mass produced ones aren't nearly as good since you need the forging action to give the material properties desirable in a holdfast?

So far I'm thinking I'll go with the option of drilling some holes (which I'll have to do irrespective of pegs or holdfasts), and see how I get on with some wooden pegs.

 

[MusicMan]

The holdfasts were £50 a pair, with a 19 mm drill thrown in. I thought it was an indulgence but very much worth while.

There's no significant difference in the relevant elastic properties between forged and bent holdfasts. Casting doesn't work of course as they'd break. The key to making them work is getting the shape just right. You can look at the thread written by the late and much lamented Richard Tomes (whom I didn't know but wish I had) to see his development of forged holdfasts.

I haven't tried the mass produced ones, but there is no reason they shouldn't work so far as the material and process are concerned. Even if you whack them in as hard as possible, the material is not stressed anywhere near its limit (unless it is cast iron, which cracks at a low stress.

Edit: there is an interesting review of Gramercy holdfasts here: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools ... real-story. However I don't know if anyone sells them in the UK. Anyone?

Keith

 

[ED65]

Here's a drawing I coincidentally happened across only yesterday that makes it easier to visualise how you'd use a quick clamp as a kind of holdfast:

Using a type of wedging action to hold boards vertical for jointing is a time-honoured technique, here are some versions of the same basic idea with dates:

But perhaps the simplest way to do it is just with pegs and a wedge:

So far I'm thinking I'll go with the option of drilling some holes (which I'll have to do irrespective of pegs or holdfasts), and see how I get on with some wooden pegs.

Once you're committed to drilling holes in the bench you can use them for much more than just pegs, useful as those are. If it seems like it would be useful you can make numerous temporary stops that rely on them, such as this setup for face planing:

 

[Jacob]

.....
But perhaps the simplest way to do it is just with pegs and a wedge:
....

Simplest way is with a Record vice. They'll hold anything from a little box side to a very big joist, and whole boxes, drawers, small items up to the width of the opening. Most of these bench top holding systems then become redundant.
NB a great deal of work is done on bench tops with no holding at all e.g. planing against stops, or vertical work like morticing which requires no holding.
PS I wouldn't drill any holes in advance. Wait until you need to - you'll be surprised at how few you need. Or just nail/screw stops as necessary. A wide piece of board (rather than a lath) clamped to the top is good as a planing stop as the board width puts the clamps out of range of the plane and avoids holes/screws.

 

[AndyT]

Another variation on the theme, once you have a holdfast or two and some holes in the bench:

Here I am planing the short piece of oak, too thin to hold in a vice. I tried just planing against a plain stop but found that gave me too little control, and the wood skidded round, so I wanted both ends held. To give me room to run the plane off, and to span the gap to the next hole, I used a scrap of thin plywood, held down onto the bench, and a wedge against the holdfast stem.

At the other end, the wooden peg is just a piece of hardwood (holly branch in this case) with a notch cut in the top. It is very slightly not straight, which makes it a suffuciently tight fit in the hole, with no need for wires, springs etc.

 

[Jacob]

That's a very elaborate and inconvenient way of doing a simple little job! I think you just need a bit more practice with planing against stops. What if you had a few dozen to do, with different lengths?

 

[AndyT]

That's a very elaborate and inconvenient way of doing a simple little job! I think you just need a bit more practice with planing against stops. What if you had a few dozen to do, with different lengths?

I had, as I said, tried planing against my bench stop, and, as I said, found that the small, light, hard piece of old oak skidded round, making it hard to control. I did have quite a few to do, all about the same length, as they were runners, sides and ends for small drawers.

So it was worth my while to find a method which suited me, at my skill level, for these fiddly pieces which I needed to reduce from roughly 1/2" to 3/8" thick. My bench has a stop, a Record 52½ and holes for holdfasts, but no tail vice. This method gave me sufficient end pressure while leaving the work clear.

I don't work in a production environment, so sometimes I will take time to experiment with different methods of doing something - gaining experience so that I can make comparisons. I found this method simple and convenient. It needed a piece of scrap from behind the bench, cut to size on the bandsaw - time taken, about thirty seconds - and a wedge from the box of wedges.

 

[Jacob]

You could plane against your holly stop on it's own but there is a bit of a knack which comes rapidly with practice - the centre of effort has to be in line with the stop i.e. you have to aim your plane at the stop, not to the side of it. This may mean moving your workpiece a touch, to line up your next cut with the stop. Sounds fiddly but it becomes second nature.
A wider stop helps of course - with a flat face; round stops are a mistake. I've got just one on my bench, about 25mm square. I've also got a hold-down, which I never seem to find a use for.

 

[AndyT]

 

[Jacob]

Looks good!

 

[ED65]

.....
But perhaps the simplest way to do it is just with pegs and a wedge:
....

Simplest way is with a Record vice.

Simplest type of wedging action to hold boards vertical Jacob. There's enough things to legitimately have differences of opinion on, you don't have to go misinterpreting things to find stuff to disagree with :-"

So anyway, this particular contest is won by a bird's mouth and peg, not by a vice.

 

[Jacob]

.....
But perhaps the simplest way to do it is just with pegs and a wedge:
....

Simplest way is with a Record vice.

Simplest type of wedging action to hold boards vertical Jacob. There's enough things to legitimately have differences of opinion on, you don't have to go misinterpreting things to find stuff to disagree with :-"

So anyway, this particular contest is won by a bird's mouth and peg, not by a vice.

If you are going to use wedges you hardly need the bench. A simple door wedge (or two) will do it better. Sitting on the bench, or on saw stools, or the floor. But if you've actually got a bench it's madness to make life difficult - fiddling about with building site techniques and not fitting a Record vice!

 

[ED65]

But if you've actually got a bench it's madness to make life difficult - fiddling about with building site techniques and not fitting a Record vice!

Tell that to a Chinese carpenter :lol:

I might have given you the wrong impression, I'm not against a face vice at all. I was very happy to come into possession of a vintage Woden quick-release vice before Christmas. But the effectiveness of some alternative workholding solutions is undeniable. What works, works, irrespective of whether it would fit in with standard workshop practice in a given woodworking tradition.

 

[Dan j]

I only used a record vice for years, until an engineer friend made me a couple of hold downs as a gift and i decided to try them.
Since then I've found that i use both the vice and hold down/wedges/pegs etc equally.
Different jobs sometimes require different holding techniques. There's no right or wrong way.

- the centre of effort has to be in line with the stop i.e. you have to aim your plane at the stop, not to the side of it. This may mean moving your workpiece a touch, to line up your next cut with the stop. Sounds fiddly but it becomes second nature.

Do you have to adapt your technique for planing wide boards? Do they end up overhanging the bench and getting in your way?