WT tools from old files ?

[Hutzul]

So have any of you guys made gouges etc from metal files or rasps please? Any tips please?

I've seen some made from allen keys, for inside bowls / vases.

Cheers

 

[Bodrighy]

NO NO NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rasps and files are made from very brittle metal and will snap. I have used allan keys however to make captive ring tools as there is little force on them but please don't use files or rasps.

Pete

 

[woodyturner]

Sorry but when I first started turning every body made tools from old files some I made are still in use to this day we learned how to do it in school an old master turner Bill Jones made all his own tools and many of them were made from old files including his 3 point tool from a 3 sided file

 

[Spindle]

Hi

I agree 100% with Pete - don't do it. If you have a hankering to make your own tools buy HSS or silver steel and make them from that. (Silver steel will require heat treating before use).

Regards Mick

 

[Bodrighy]

I learnt to turn at school using old files as well but have since realised that it just ain't a good idea. I have seen one snap and believe me it is definitely detrimental to your life LOL.

Pete

 

[CHJ]

Unless old file steel is annealed and re-hardened and tempered correctly to give toughness as opposed to absolute hardness (and resultant brittleness) there is a serious risk of them shattering.

You may get away with some good old Sheffield steel versions but to chance it with far eastern produced imports is a risk too far in my opinion.

Old files make good scrapers for metal work finishing and could be safe for shear scraping on wood, but can you guarantee that one day it would not be picked up to remove wood at the same rate as you would use a HSS version.

That's just my take on the subject of course, but you ain't going to use one anywhere near a machine I'm in charge of.

 

[chipmunk]

Silver steel (High Carbon Tool steel) is cheap enough and easy enough to get hold of these days...
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/metal_bar.html

So, I'm not sure it's worth the risk to reuse files as others have said.

If you don't feel up to doing the heat treatment of Silver Steel yourself then buy HSS blanks.

In small lengths these can be obtained from Axminster or ArcEuro although these are harder than the normal M2 of turning tools since they usually contain some Cobalt (5-8%)...

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Cutting-Tools/High-Speed-Steel-Toolbits

I think this makes them better for scrapers though because they stay sharper longer from my experience.

At woodworking shows, Ashley Iles sell M2 HSS toolblanks at reasonable prices and you may be able to get them by mail order by asking Tony Iles http://www.ashleyiles.co.uk/ashley_iles_catalogue.html

I love making scrapers but buy all of my gouges but if you want to give it a go look here...

http://www.bigtreeturnings.com/articles/siegel 18-4.pdf

This also gives details of heat treatment.

HTH
Jon

 

[Aden30mm]

Possibly very good advice not to use files for turning applications.

However, I have two wood scrapers I made from files some fifteen years ago, and my belief is that only the cutting end is hardened the rest of the section is acceptably malleable.

I first cast the files into a barbeque hot coals and left them there overnight, this takes the hardness away. You then cut your profile, by using a file (you should see the looks others give you). Then you need to temper and harden, if I remember my old apprentice master the process was heat file end to straw yellow and quench and then reheat to cherry red and quench. Somewhere in the depth of my mind if the steel has a low carbon content you could case harden the steel. However, my contention is that the heat treatment process does not lend itself to home workshops due to the risk of fire. Also the risk of fracture of a tool that has not been heat treated correctly is a real possibility as described within this thread.

One point of note most metal allied trade apprentices had metal work scrapers made from files this was an integral part of their training, and they worked well worked when we spent our first 6 months hacking and filing (surface plates, blue spot, files and scrapers), the thought of throwing away old files was unheard of.

I must be a sad old git as this was in a time when schools were still teaching metalwork skills, and I remember at the age of 14 having completed casting(including pattern making) , milling, shaping, fitting &turning, hot riveting (old school), enameling, forge work all buttressed by a technical drawing classes. However, there was method in the madness as my school prepared boys to go into the shipbuilding industry. This system produced some outstanding engineers.

 

[CHJ]

..... if I remember my old apprentice master the process was heat file end to straw yellow and quench and then reheat to cherry red and quench. ....

Not quite.
Cherry Red then quench, it's now hard and possibly brittle.
Polish and heat working length to colour and re-quench.

You may have to do this in stages with a long length of steel such as a turning tool (temper the whole length) to have both toughness in the shank and tempered hardness in the cutting end.

 

[Wildman]

old files are a cheap source of tool steel that no self respecting recycler could overlook. Before they can be used for anything else though they need to be annealed (softened) shaped then re hadrened and tempered. They do make excellent quality tools. The heat treatment using the tables above is simple enough with a small brazing hearth or forge and either coal fire ot gas torch.

 

[chipmunk]

Hi Wildman,
The problem with files is not just the brittleness but also the distinct possibility that hairline cracks are present which have propagated from the stress points at the roots of file teeth. Remember the rectangular window corners on the Comet jet airliner? It's these cracks elongating which could cause the file to snap with a catch.

Unfortunately even grinding the teeth off and annealing will not fully solve this problem if the cracks go deep enough. Annealing, hardening and tempering the file just means that the file might bend slightly before snapping in two rather than shattering. Perhaps means fewer pieces of shrapnel to avoid :wink:

I think to fully solve the problem you need to reforge them.

But if your tool control is good, you take light cuts and you're careful to minimize the toolrest overhang you might think that the risk is worth it to be green - good luck though.

Perhaps not recycling but another source of very cheap carbon steel are chisels from the Toolstations and Screwfixes of the world. These shouldn't suffer the same disadvantages as files and are recommended by Dave Springett in his book Woodturning Wizardry.

John Lucas of AAW wrote a good tip about easy tempering hardened tool steel and it is to leave the tool in a domestic oven at 425 F or 220 C for half an hour per 1/4" thickness and then turn off the oven and leave oven and tool to cool. This should result in a straw-coloured tempered tool, which is harder than on Chas' chart, but in any case is probably best to do this while SWMBO is out :wink:

HTH
Jon

 

[boysie39]

Who would feel safe using one of these home made tools after reading most of what was written above .

To use something which you have little or no idea if it is safe and offer it up to an object spinning at up to 1000 /2000 revs. is like playing Russian Roulette . Spend the few quid or wait until you can .

 

[Hutzul]

Possibly very good advice not to use files for turning applications.

However, I have two wood scrapers I made from files some fifteen years ago, and my belief is that only the cutting end is hardened the rest of the section is acceptably malleable.

One point of note most metal allied trade apprentices had metal work scrapers made from files this was an integral part of their training, and they worked well worked when we spent our first 6 months hacking and filing (surface plates, blue spot, files and scrapers), the thought of throwing away old files was unheard of.

I must be a sad old git as this was in a time when schools were still teaching metalwork skills, and I remember at the age of 14 having completed casting(including pattern making) , milling, shaping, fitting &turning, hot riveting (old school), enameling, forge work all buttressed by a technical drawing classes. However, there was method in the madness as my school prepared boys to go into the shipbuilding industry. This system produced some outstanding engineers.

This brings back fond memories Aden, I still have some of the chunky metal files from serving my apprenticeship, and recall metalwork at school, I left school to train as a toolmaker and recall my heat treatment forays over the subsequent years. I ran a fabrication and tooling section in an engineering firm for many years, so am no stranger to heat treatment etc.

Thanks to all for your input.

 

[woodyturner]

If your after chisels I am selling up and I have quite a few chisels for spindle work £10 each if your interested PM me with what you need

 

[tekno.mage]

I think this business about making woodturning tools from old files started during/after WWII when tool steel was still in short supply and expensive and people made do with what they had. My partner has made some small pattern scrapers from old files which he uses and I won't - for the reasons to do with cracking and brittleness described above. Each to their own I suppose - they are quite small and he never takes heavy cuts with them.

A good source of a type of tool steel is the rod in one of those gas struts used to keep hatchbacks of cars open. If you get one that has failed (where the rod won't keep hatchback up any more) - you can cut a length of the rod off (do not try and remove the rod completely from the cannister at the bottom - this is pressurised and could be very dangerous!) and grind the end to make a 3 point tool or a small round skew - I have both of these are they are most useful and keep their edge just as long as any other turning tools.

 

[chipmunk]

Hi Kym,
That sounds a good source of steel.

One of the chaps at our club swears by old broken tines off hay making/raking machines, if you know any friendly farmers. This is high grade spring steel too and will make good round skews and scrapers.

I've read of a few of the US turners who have round gouges made out of old rifle barrels but I guess these are in shorter supply over here :wink:

Jon