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So it's news to you that our "justice" system isn't fit for purpose? The whole point is that if punishment for open and shut cases were more draconian then there'd be a real deterrent and less chance of innocents being wrongfully accused. There's also the problem that crooks get away with their crimes on technicalities or via the ludicrous "asked for 5,000 other offences to be taken into account". If the penalty imposed were multiplied by the number of offences the toerag is coughing to, we'd soon see a reduction in crime figures.

Complacency and prevarication have no role to play in today's crime-ridden world.

Agree with every word.

Another example - granted extreme - is the case of a 12 year old boy, who somehow managed to steal his foster mum's care and run her down, killing her. When arrested, he said "Is she dead? Looks like I got my first kill...", and were recorded on the cop's bodycam.
He was charged with causing death by dangerous driving, and not surprisingly, found guilty.

Our "justice system" decided to "wallop" him with 2 years in custody.
 
Very very sorry to hear.

I think you have to do something to make the tools individual - a stamp for example - and photograph it with date and time. At least helps with the insurance claim and might help with recovery.

I think if the scrotes know you have stuff, then the advent of cordless angle grinders makes entry inevitable.

Oh, and for those that took the thread from the OP to arguing the dis-merits of capital punishment in 10 pages. Really? You couldn't help yourselves?
I think it was just a natural progression from the suggestions of violent retribution, and that from a moderator! I sincerely tried to stay out of it, but eventually succumbed after a couple of beers.
 
It was a 16yr old boy that Tony Martin shot, who, as you say was running away at the time
The 16yr old who was released on bail that very day for a previous burglary, and with 29 previous convictions for theft, fraud and police assault, who was climbing out a window in order to escape at the time he was killed by Farmer Tony Martin, who had ten previous break ins on his property, who has Aspergers syndrome, and was suffering at the time from a paranoid personality disorder specifically directed at anyone entering his home and exacerbated by a deep depression.


Did the 16yr old deserve his fate ? No he didn't. Were the actions that led to his death his own ? yes they were.
 
I think it was just a natural progression from the suggestions of violent retribution, and that from a moderator! I sincerely tried to stay out of it, but eventually succumbed after a couple of beers.
Yeah I was very much the same. I bit my tongue a lot, and then before you know it I found myself being sucked in.

Anyway, if it’s any scant consolation to the OP, then his woes have given me the kick up the arse I need to itinerarize and evidence my tools in case I ever get burgled again.
 
It's the current/Amps that does the damage not volts.

Without the volts you have no current, I suggest you read up on ohms law.
I give up, I'm not here educate the ill informed.

You only need around 50mA to cause cardiac arrest, one of the reasons why residual current protective devices operate at 30mA. The voltage needed to cause 50mA of current to flow will depend on the conditions, dry undamaged skin will need more voltage than wet or damaged skin.

I don't know anyone who has been killed by 230v AC.
Well think yourself lucky because I knew of one guy who died from cardiac arrest whilst working on street furniture and if 230 volts was that safe there would be no reason to have the split 55-0-55 site voltage on the grounds of safety, even 110 was considered high risk but 55 is much safer.
 
Agree with every word.

Another example - granted extreme - is the case of a 12 year old boy, who somehow managed to steal his foster mum's care and run her down, killing her. When arrested, he said "Is she dead? Looks like I got my first kill...", and were recorded on the cop's bodycam.
He was charged with causing death by dangerous driving, and not surprisingly, found guilty.

Our "justice system" decided to "wallop" him with 2 years in custody.
I don't know the details of that case (though I do recall bits in the media when it happened); but I think we should be careful when it comes to these sort of statements. Judges have guidelines on sentences that can be imposed for crimes; including all manner of minutia in the details and the circumstances of the crime. I'd be very surprised if (in the situation above) it was a case of 2 years in some youth prison then back out into society.

The Secret Barrister (https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret) has had some interesting posts over the years; explaining the details of "why" certain cases have resulted in the sentences given.

LegalEagle (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpa-Zb0ZcQjTCPP1Dx_1M8Q) does some similar stuff; albeit more entertaining, and on the US system.
 
Re the Tony Martin case-

The 16yr old was running away at the time. Yes he was a scumbag and yes Mr Martin had already suffered a great deal. BUT...
See my comments above on use of force. The force in this case was not for self defence as the offender was running away. Neither was it to prevent crime or detain the offender - the crime had already occurred. How can the force be legal? There is plenty to mitigate what MrMartin did but not defend it.
( defence = not guilty because there is a lawful reason for doing it, mitigation = guilty but there are reasons why punishment should be reduced ).
 
I don't know the details of that case (though I do recall bits in the media when it happened); but I think we should be careful when it comes to these sort of statements. Judges have guidelines on sentences that can be imposed for crimes; including all manner of minutia in the details and the circumstances of the crime. I'd be very surprised if (in the situation above) it was a case of 2 years in some youth prison then back out into society.

The Secret Barrister (https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret) has had some interesting posts over the years; explaining the details of "why" certain cases have resulted in the sentences given.

LegalEagle (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpa-Zb0ZcQjTCPP1Dx_1M8Q) does some similar stuff; albeit more entertaining, and on the US system.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-67557919
 
The police have carried out public executions of major criminals, such as people guilty of being Brazilian electricians in a public place, barristers having a nervous breakdown in their own home, "Irishmen" carrying loaded table legs home et al. Did any of those stop the practice of allowing gung-ho coppers to run loose on our streets with loaded firearms?

That is not a reasonable explanation of events.

Put yourself in the place of the copper holding the gun......

It is your duty to prevent loss of life and limb to everyone, including the suspect where possible. This means bottling out because you are scared or because you don't want to make a decision is not an option. It could end up with you, your mates, or an innocent passer-by dead. You could then have to pay a legal price
for failing to do your duty. Being dead makes it difficult to go home to your family at the end of a shift. Somebody else being dead because you wimped out is a mental torture that you and the dead person's loved ones will have to suffer from then on.

But judgements have to be made, often in just a second or two on information which is most likely to be incomplete and possibly factually incorrect through no fault of yours. If you know anything about use of force in violent situations then you will know that action beats reaction. Do you wait to be shot at, or for somebody else to be shot? Hmmmm... 50:50? Phone a friend?

Sometimes the only answer to a person of evil intent with a gun is a cop with a gun. An imposing presence and a righteous moral attitude a la Dixon of Dock Green just don't cut the mustard.

You will be judged on what you knew at the time, and what you should have known had you carried out your duties diligently. This includes making sure your training is up to date including knowledge of policies and procedures, and availing yourself of the latest intelligence. If you don't know this stuff and it contributes to you causing a death, then even if your motives were good you are guilty of manslaughter by reason of criminal negligence.

Suppose then you are fully genned up on everything, but somebody else has let you down by carelessness, or even a genuinely honest mistake. Eg the intelligence officer has briefed you wrong, or the observing officer makes a wrong call leading you to open fire. It is not your fault, but still you end up going through the stress of a protracted investigation, often taking years, and still you have the anguish of knowing that you took life even though it was somebody else's fault.

Re the Brazilian shot in the tube station, it is tragic. ( everything here was gleaned from the media - no secrets revealed from me, I was nothing to do with it ). I feel for both the man's family and the cop who pulled the gun. The man was misidentified as one of the offenders from the 7/7/5 terrorist massacre by an officer keeping obs on a building. The real terrorist escaped undetected dressed in female muslim garb. The armed copper pursued the man into a tube station where he vaulted a turnstile to get into a crowded area. The officer then repeatedly shot him because it was (wrongly) believed he was about to set off a suicide bomb. If a terrorist was going to set off a bomb then where better than a tube station?

Armed cops are trained to "shoot to stop", which means applying enough force to avert the danger. In what was ( wrongly ) perceived as a very high risk situation a very high level of force was considered necessary. If you were that cop in that situation, would you have waited to see what he did? If you had waited and had got it wrong, then you and a whole load of innocents would have been smeared all over the walls!

Your description of a gung ho execution is as offensive as it is factually incorrect. I take my hat off to armed coppers who have to face potential death/mutilation and/or pressure from having to deal with this sort of incident. I can't understand why they do it but am grateful they do. Without some armed police we all would be in deep s***.

[No - I have never shot anyone, but was shot a good few years ago].
 
You only need around 50mA to cause cardiac arrest, one of the reasons why residual current protective devices operate at 30mA. The voltage needed to cause 50mA of current to flow will depend on the conditions, dry undamaged skin will need more voltage than wet or damaged skin.

This is shown comprehensively at Table 1. For wire weasels and others with more than a passing interest, this paper from the European Heart Journal, Volume 39, Issue 16, 21 April 2018, Pages 1459–1465, first published in 2017 should prove instructive. Electrical cardiac injuries: current concepts and management
 
That is not a reasonable explanation of events.

Put yourself in the place of the copper holding the gun......

It is your duty to prevent loss of life and limb to everyone, including the suspect where possible. This means bottling out because you are scared or because you don't want to make a decision is not an option. It could end up with you, your mates, or an innocent passer-by dead. You could then have to pay a legal price
for failing to do your duty. Being dead makes it difficult to go home to your family at the end of a shift. Somebody else being dead because you wimped out is a mental torture that you and the dead person's loved ones will have to suffer from then on.

But judgements have to be made, often in just a second or two on information which is most likely to be incomplete and possibly factually incorrect through no fault of yours. If you know anything about use of force in violent situations then you will know that action beats reaction. Do you wait to be shot at, or for somebody else to be shot? Hmmmm... 50:50? Phone a friend?

Sometimes the only answer to a person of evil intent with a gun is a cop with a gun. An imposing presence and a righteous moral attitude a la Dixon of Dock Green just don't cut the mustard.

You will be judged on what you knew at the time, and what you should have known had you carried out your duties diligently. This includes making sure your training is up to date including knowledge of policies and procedures, and availing yourself of the latest intelligence. If you don't know this stuff and it contributes to you causing a death, then even if your motives were good you are guilty of manslaughter by reason of criminal negligence.

Suppose then you are fully genned up on everything, but somebody else has let you down by carelessness, or even a genuinely honest mistake. Eg the intelligence officer has briefed you wrong, or the observing officer makes a wrong call leading you to open fire. It is not your fault, but still you end up going through the stress of a protracted investigation, often taking years, and still you have the anguish of knowing that you took life even though it was somebody else's fault.

Re the Brazilian shot in the tube station, it is tragic. ( everything here was gleaned from the media - no secrets revealed from me, I was nothing to do with it ). I feel for both the man's family and the cop who pulled the gun. The man was misidentified as one of the offenders from the 7/7/5 terrorist massacre by an officer keeping obs on a building. The real terrorist escaped undetected dressed in female muslim garb. The armed copper pursued the man into a tube station where he vaulted a turnstile to get into a crowded area. The officer then repeatedly shot him because it was (wrongly) believed he was about to set off a suicide bomb. If a terrorist was going to set off a bomb then where better than a tube station?

Armed cops are trained to "shoot to stop", which means applying enough force to avert the danger. In what was ( wrongly ) perceived as a very high risk situation a very high level of force was considered necessary. If you were that cop in that situation, would you have waited to see what he did? If you had waited and had got it wrong, then you and a whole load of innocents would have been smeared all over the walls!

Your description of a gung ho execution is as offensive as it is factually incorrect. I take my hat off to armed coppers who have to face potential death/mutilation and/or pressure from having to deal with this sort of incident. I can't understand why they do it but am grateful they do. Without some armed police we all would be in deep s***.

[No - I have never shot anyone, but was shot a good few years ago].
Nice try, but no cigar.

For the last 16 years I've lived in a country where all the police are armed; I've previously lived in several other countries where the same is true. Funnily enough they manage to do their jobs without killing even armed criminals; it's only in the UK that the gung-ho antics (like the description or not) of the police lead to so many innocent folks, or disturbed people with imitation firearms, losing their lives.

Time certainly flies as one gets older and it's strange to reflect that 40 years have passed since the Stephen Waldorf fiasco, when three hysterical, and stupid, armed cops proceeded to shoot and then pistol whip an entirely innocent and unarmed man, firing 14 shots but hitting him only 5 times and still not managing to murder him. We're assured that the apocryphal "lessons" have been learned since then and the training of armed officers has improved, but I certainly can't see any signs of either.

Back in the mists of time I was a solicitor in East London (until I decided to branch out into a more honest career :cool: ) and it was a fact of life that the police were inefficient, dishonest and mendacious. I sometimes discuss current UK legal developments with old friends from those days, including a recently-retired High Court judge, and their opinion is that little has changed in the intervening years. Another old friend, sadly no longer with us, was a Commander in the Met and never stopped complaining about the (lack of) quality in both the rank and file and senior echelons as time went by.

Take your hat off by all means - and no-one's saying that policing is a cushy number - but do try to keep a sense of proportion: we certainly need armed police in the UK but we need better ones that we can trust to do their jobs properly and shoot the right people, ideally without killing anyone in the process.
 
Another time, another place. If I were the child and had got a wallop, had I told my father he'd have said serve me right for being on someone else's private property without permission.
Maybe an electric fence a better idea, I've had many a 'jolt'as a kid playing on a neighbouring farm, but NEVER peed on one! ;)
 
Did the 16yr old deserve his fate ? No he didn't. Were the actions that led to his death his own ? yes they were.
The person responsible for the 16 yr olds death was the man who pulled the trigger and shot him in the back. How can anyone with any sense argue otherwise.
 
Yep; that's an awful situation, and it's of course quite probable that the kid is "not right in the head" and will find himself of interest to the authorities again in the future. But, it does back up my point that we as non-legal people don't know the details of the legal system. Even if the outcome looks unjust from our point of view it was obviously felt that a murder conviction was not going to be possible in the above case; meaning that there were only limited sentencing options open for the judge.
 
The person responsible for the 16 yr olds death was the man who pulled the trigger and shot him in the back. How can anyone with any sense argue otherwise.
That's true, but in this instance I do think Triton's point is valid: "Were the actions that led to his death his own ? yes they were"
 
In my many years as a gas engineer I was trained on basic electrics ( preliminary electrical checks ) safe isolation and confirming safe isolation . We were told on many occasions that the human body can sense electricity at 20 mv but at 80mv this could be fatal due to knocking your heart out of kilter . We were told in the event of a 240 v contact to stop work immediately and contact your manager who would arrange to take you direct to a/ e . Reason was a white goods engineer who had received a 240 v contact died at the wheel of his van sev hrs later . Electricity travels in waves that move upwards and then downwards - does the direction of said wave decide if you get thrown off or grabbed and then you can’t let go - either way don’t think electricity in your shop as a defence against theft is in any way safe -too many opportunity’s for the wrong people to get hurt … best defence is noise ,, time ,, cctv ,, community action ( talk to each other and look out for each other ) there was an advert a good few years back where the home owners were filmed telling any would be thief the easiest way to get in eg the kitchen window doesn’t lock ,, oh don’t worry about the back door we never lock it ,, that camera is a dummy - it doesn’t work etc etc . Just make it as difficult and as noisey as you can . Years ago I had an old factory siren and it would literally hurt your ears but that is what you need - and finally light and lots of it ..
 
Of those happy with thieves being hospitalised or killed, have you ever in your life driven after more than 2 pints?
Or been with a friend who has?
 
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