Why bother

[Benchwayze]

I don't think any of us would suggest that as hobbyists, we wouldn't want to make something for friends and relations, without counting beans. Even the Professionals would probably do the same.

The real irk is that work is undervalued by society as a whole. I fear we live in a 'chuck-it and see' society. My own daughter is as bad as anyone when it comes to that philosophy. But then she isn't ankle deep in years old junk and clutter, kept for sentimental reasons.

John :wink:

Hooray... Finally got my spell-check working in Firefox. Not that i can't spell; I just can't type worth a darn... Nice to see my typos underlined! :mrgreen:

 

[Richard S]

It is worth remembering that little in this world has any intrinsic value, and that any items true worth is only what soneone is prepared to pay for it. Therefore an items value has no reflection on it cost to produce. Even an internationaly quoted commodity falls within this criteria.
I was taught a long time ago that when taking an item to market you start with the end price in mind and work backwards to see if the production costs are feasable, just because an item costs for example £1 to produce it doesn't follow that a potential customer would be prepared to pay more than this.
It is for this reason that all high end consumer goods are marketed on the basis of exclusivity, desirability and quality because these are the key elements that add "percieved" value, which is all any item has, each individual will percieve a different value based upon their desire to own and / or need for that product.
As has been said before if you want to sell your product for a reasonable price you need to target your market and market to your target. To ask somebody cold, with no interest in your product, no desire to own it and no idea of its exclusivity or point of reference as to its true quality to place a value upon it is asking for exactly the response you recieved, ditto SM.
I know it hurts when somebody doesn't appreciate what you have put into making something but I think there is more than a little naievity in what you seem to have expected.
Personally I think your box is really nice and can obviously appreciate the work that has gone into it, however the value to me would be rather low because I would like to think that I could make one myself (if I wanted one). And that is my point.

What I find even more interesting though is the amount of interest this thread has generated, even a low level contributor like me has taken part.

This is also why woodwork will probably only ever be a hobby to me.

All the very best
Richard

 

[Edwin]

Ten years ago, I made a classical guitar using materials that cost me around £180. I've no idea how long I spent on it. Nor have I any idea of its commercial value in the estimation of "Joe Public", given that you can get a guitar that looks a bit like it for £50. For my 70th birthday, my family arranged for a professional musician to come in and play it, and he was impressed with it. A year or two afterwards, my grandson said that, for his 16th birthday, the thing he most desired was that guitar, so that's where it went. A second guitar later went to another grandson. I have two more on the stocks and hope to hold on to at least one of them. Like most people who make things, I'm acutely aware of how I might have done a better job in some detail or other, but I know that they have integrity, that they are valued and that they will survive me. So if you ask the question "Why bother?", that's why.

 

[xy mosian]

But then she isn't ankle deep in years old junk and clutter.

John :wink:

Don't have any 'years old junk and clutter, kept for sentimental reasons' in this house. It is all redundant treasure

xy

 

[Anonymous]

I've read all the comments, it's a tough one as I not only mass produce, I also make bespoke furniture to my discerning clients. (when I say I, I mean the lads in my workshop)

I can't comment on the areas that you live in, however by me we have some very very wealthy people who think nothing of spending 5 grand on a dining room table they appreciate that something bespoke costs a lot more. One customer of mine spent 270k on a smallbone kitchen, smallbone probably made 200k on that!

I started my business about the same time I joined this forum I started off trying to compete with ikea as I was desperate for work, I made no money and struggled. As soon as I put my prices up I became very busy so much so I moved to 3200sqft premises and employed 2 joiners.

I had a lovely couple call me round the other day and they showed me a picture of what they wanted for their living room this picture had a price on it of 179.00 I said couldn't possibly make it for that they replied no no we're expecting to pay over a thousand pounds for it, I said why when you can have this one their reply was because we want you to make it.

So anyway my point is never sell yourself short and demand the price you think you deserve, if the quality is there someone will pay for it. The other thing is to try and find exactly where the timber comes from European oak what part of Europe. Always helps the sell.

 

[Ian]

I too have been down this road - 97% of my work is to commission with some one of pieces and a small amount of batch ring boxes for the galleries. I still get the odd customer that contacts me looking for something for £50 and I point out that the hinges alone are £30 - but most of them are coming to me for me. Friends and family still pay the same but with some discount, because if I start to make them a special box with a french polished finish for £20 I have to stop good paying work to do so - they all understand that I'm not just doing this in my spare time.

Its hard to market bespoke as people need to hear it from friends or family that have commissioned a piece - so word of mouth is the best but is slow.

Chin up and plough on.

Cheers

Ian

PS Thanks for the kind words.

 

[custard]

Ian, bit of a digression, but I'm intrigued by the "acetal borders" you use on your boxes? How do you bond it to the box and why this instead of say ebony?

 

[Ian]

I used a 2 part plastic epoxy - the name of it escapes me now - I used it instead of ebony because I was doing some polyester inlays and did not want any bleed which in some tests happened with ebony.

Worked well but was a bit messy.

Ian

 

[custard]

I used a 2 part plastic epoxy - the name of it escapes me now - I used it instead of ebony because I was doing some polyester inlays and did not want any bleed which in some tests happened with ebony.

Worked well but was a bit messy.

Ian

Thanks for that, I may give it a go as I get all sorts of problems with ebony, black dust getting in the grain of sycamore and maple, splintering, etc.

 

[Ian]

You will still get black dust from this - but can be easily blown out with compressed air.

 

[mac1012]

yeah its difficult i admit , i make and sell my craft items in my spare time , angels, crosses, wooden words, love hearts etc and just started young child rocking horse.
i made about 700 pound profit this year selling on ebay and craft fairs now and again, also to work colleagues
i very keen on good quality they are fairly straight forward to make but look good and are well made.

The first rule of thumb what a buisness advisor told me years ago was ....its not about what you like doing its what the customer wants.

if they want it enough they will pay but then you got to balance that against what the average person will pay in the street. if you expecting your wifes work mates to pay you 120 pound for your time making what they see as a standard box then i afraid you are way of base.
Have you ever paid that for an item like that ? It looks very nice and far better than i could make but people dont want to pay you for your time its a common thing in craft fair world.

Its a niche market that you would have to tap into for your kind of work and has been said posh people with lots of money.

I focus on simple design and creatvity that people find appealing my market is mainly women. people will pay more than chinese ebay item they not stupid and people like what appeals to them but they only have so much money.

Get your creative juices flowing and maybe focus on items that you could sell between 10 and say 30 pound that or work hard tapping into your lucrative market but it certainly wont be joe public.

 

[mac1012]

after looking at a few posts to this thread it seems to me that there is a bit of woodworking snobbery on here.

how the heck would you expect the average person to know how much the hinges cost or that you spent two ice ages making something. seems to me people take pleasure in making people feel stupid .

i love what i do and only in my spare time but i treat my customers with respect and politeness.

Talk about inflated egos !!!

How are people going to get what you do or how long it took you to make yeah different worlds alright ones called reality and the other fantasy if you ask me

 

[Ian]

Well the hinge prices are on my website and I make a living from making boxes so for me its reality!!

 

[Jacob]

.....
The first rule of thumb what a buisness advisor told me years ago was ....its not about what you like doing its what the customer wants.........

Really idiotic advice IMHO.
People all want different things. The same individual wants different things - somebody might buy one of Ian's very nice but expensive boxes and on the same day buy some plastic sandwich boxes. It's not either/or.
You should make what you like (or how you like) and concentrate on doing just that, getting better at making them and developing your marketing at the same time. Unless you do that, and make a lot of mistakes on the way, you will never have the skills to meet the big opportunities, if they ever come along.

NB "Business advisers" are usually failed or redundant "business" people.

 

[mac1012]

i sure your boxes are very nice ian my point was people who make people guess how long it took etc etc then throw a strop when they dont get it right.

well you can make all the stuff you want and you might think its the dogs whatever but dosent mean to say people will buy it you have to do a bit of market research get reaction and then if selling then you know it worth making it your taste might not be someone elses yes everbody likes diff things but no good making something no one wants or people wont pay what you want.

if i remember successfull buisness do well making a product people want at a price they can afford.

i have huge respect for people who do it and make a living but seems to have gone to their heads a bit on here ( some not all)

 

[gregmcateer]

Bob,
As other have said - lovely box, nicely made.
And why bother? Coz you enjoy it and it feels good.
Most of us are guilty, I suspect, of buying cheap and cheerful at least sometimes. (We shop in Aldi and the quality is actually quite good, (especially the crisps, Mr Blister, sir!), so we cannot really complain too much).
That having been said, it is a real gutter when what has been carefully, lovingly and 'time-consumingly' well-made is devalued so easily.
Please don't be disheartened, though - as others have said, if we keep valuing what we do, others will see it for what it is really worth.
Cheers,
Greg

 

[custard]

Many people (not all, but many) identify two facts about their lives,

1. They dislike their job
2. They enjoy making things.

They then construct a solution based around enjoying a reasonable income from making and selling wooden objects. Unfortunately for the majority of people (not all, but the majority) this is about as realistic as winning X Factor.

-They don't have the exceptional craft or business skills needed to charge a meaningful premium
-They're not actually that good at design, and in that respect are no different from 1.2 billion Chinese workers
-Their mortgages and household bills won't allow the long, lean period needed to develop a business from scratch (ironically many people first realise that they really dislike their jobs just when they become saddled with serious debts and family commitments)

Where this can all get a bit malignant is when, instead of recognising that the numbers just don't add up, some people instead blame the general public for refusing to pay the prices that might allow their self employed craftsman fantasy to become reality.

I work in the media business, and I regularly meet people who are angry and embittered because the world has not obliged in turning them into successful writers, musicians, photographers, or actors.

The real killer though is that the last fifteen years have been an unprecedented period of debt fuelled prosperity. That's driven exploding house prices (so it's okay to borrow for new furniture because it's investing in the value of your home), a boom in corporate building projects (forget the budget, let's kit out the boardroom with furniture from one of those designer craftsmen), and a glut of financial sector bonuses (with consequent second home refurbishments dotting the coast from Southwold to Rock, and all needing expensive hand crafted nick-nacks).

But that's all over, both now and for the forseeable future. So the chances of making a go of it over the next fifteen years are even harder than during the past fifteen years.

The reality for most people (I say again, most, not all) is to stop turning the pleasure of hand making objects into the solution for job dissatisfaction. Enjoy making things, just don't expect the great British public to cover your mortgage by buying them.

 

[Bjørnar Engh]

Never let the customer set the prize of your products. Calculate the prize with the correct ammount of time, materials and profit+ vat. Write a proper bill. This is the differense between us and Greece. This is how i put food on the table. When i say correct ammount of time, talk to other experienced woodworkers, what is a reasonable ammount of time to use on this product.
Be proud of your product, few people are capable of making a dowtail box today.
If you cant sell it, keep it on your shelf, and start making a product that people are willing to pay good money for.

Bjørnar carpenters master Norway

 

[Jacob]

....... don't expect the great British public to cover your mortgage by buying them.

They better had do, the fluckers, or I'm up saint creek without a paddle!
They've done it before, they'll do it again, I hope :shock:

 

[chunkolini]

NB "Business advisers" are usually failed or redundant "business" people. God point jacob.
I was involved with business link. Their uckwfitted adviser told me 'people will never pay that much for shelves' at the time I had a full order book and had put my prices up toslow down the work coming in. They are as you say people who cant get real jobs or run a business. he also found it amusing that I was 'trying to sell sculptures' I was just working on a 10k comission for Longleat.
Ok most of my stuff is metal sculpture but the rinciples are much the same.
Never try to compete with anybody, you cannot compete with foreign factories.
Craft fairs? a waste of time unless they are dedent ones, most opf them are full of kits that have bee assembled or imported tat that people have finished. Punters notice the price not the quality at these events.
Try to be original make your work stand out from the crowd.
Have faith in yourself.
Pricing the hard one. if I like something a lot I will put the price up. I try to keep track of time and materials to work out a base price first.
Try to produce a variety of work, I have a blacksmith mate, she makes bowls and benches, and that's it. Mad.
Try and cover a wide range of prices, people will spend £60.00 on a whim.
Get a website but dont spend a fortune on seo.
My business was only ever meant to be a self financing hobby.
I feel lucky. (Edit) To be able to make a living doing something like this (kicked off the computer by the youth this morning).
Even if it is 'just' a self financing hobby that is a great achievment. I always felt guilty drainig the family budget when I started out, so I had a tin in the garage that any earnings went it, that became a bank account. Initially every bean went back on tools and materials, then i bought a fancy pants motorbike, then a family holiday etc etc.
Then I took the plunge, I had to in order to escape a sadistic bullying boss in my old job.