Who's kerf is it anyway...?

[Alf]

Further to the discussion in Philly's straight-handled dovetail saw gloat, er, I mean thread, I thought we might have a blind testing - just for fun. Below are a series of kerfs made with saws of various tooth configuration, and a list of the saws I used. Can you match saw to kerf? No prizes for clever clogs - 'tis just for your own, or possibly my, own amusement. :wink: For argument's sake we'll consider the kerfs tallied as 1-9 from left to right.

A. Dozuki (western handle) 18ppi
B. Bow saw
C. 8" dovetail saw, 15ppi rip
D. 18" panel saw, 8ppi X-cut
E. 10" Wood dovetail saw, 13ppi rip
F. 10" Governor brand dovetail saw, 13ppi x-cut
G. 12" Wm Marples tenon saw, 12ppi X-cut
H. 10" R Sorby dovetail saw, 15ppi rip
I. Dozuki 26ppi

I was aiming for a straight cut, but in some cases the saw intervened and went its own way. :roll: That might help you eliminate at least one...

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

I like it Alf :wink:

OK. Probably far out but here are mine:

A. Dozuki (western handle) 18ppi = 1
B. Bow saw = 8
C. 8" dovetail saw, 15ppi rip = 7
D. 18" panel saw, 8ppi X-cut = 9
E. 10" Wood dovetail saw, 13ppi rip = 5
F. 10" Governor brand dovetail saw, 13ppi x-cut = 3
G. 12" Wm Marples tenon saw, 12ppi X-cut = 6
H. 10" R Sorby dovetail saw, 15ppi rip = 4
I. Dozuki 26ppi = 2

How did I do? 0 out of 9?

 

[Frank D.]

Here goes:
1. I
2. F
3. H
4. A
5. E
6. C
7. G
8. B
9. D
If I have half of them right I'll be happy...
Frank D.
PS Alf, aould you just tell us how many correct kerfs we have without giving away the answers for the others?

 

[Gill]

Wot - no bandsaw cut or Woodrat cut?

.

Time for me to pop into the bunker again :wink: .

Gill

 

[Alf]

Wot - no bandsaw cut

Heck, you're right - I should have! Drat. :roll:

Okay, well Frank's in the lead with, I think, 5/9, with Tony close on his heels with 4/9. Very impressive.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Travis Byrne]

Alf
I don't have that many saws, but #9 looks like a chain saw


Travis

 

[Pete W]

I have no idea really, but I'd like saw No. 3 please, Alf

 

[houtslager]

A. 3 , B. 8 , C. 7 , D. 6, E. 9, F. 4, G. 2 , H. 5 , I. 1

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

"Ooo, I like this game" (misphrasing, but said in my best Eccles voice).

My choices:

A. Dozuki (western handle) 18ppi =========== 2
B. Bow saw ========================= 7
C. 8" dovetail saw, 15ppi rip ============== 4
D. 18" panel saw, 8ppi X-cut ============== 9
E. 10" Wood dovetail saw, 13ppi rip ========== 6
F. 10" Governor brand dovetail saw, 13ppi x-cut == 8
G. 12" Wm Marples tenon saw, 12ppi X-cut ===== 5
H. 10" R Sorby dovetail saw, 15ppi rip ======== 3
I. Dozuki 26ppi ======================= 1

I'm really curious as to the reasoning behind some of the choices (above), other than just blind guesses (a few of which I certainly made), since it helps understand the expected nature of a saw cut/kerb.

For example, an obvious one is that a high-tooth saw is likely to have the smallest teeth and the smallest set, therefore the narrowest kerf (= 1). And the converse (= 9). I would also expect to see a dozuki causing tearout on the near side, while a Western saw should cause tearout on the far side. Is it an oversimplification to say that x-cut saws might leave a smoother kerf than the otherwise equivalent rip (hard to see that here).

OK, Alf. I'm ready to sit in the corner.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Aragorn]

Good game!
Hey - we know how to have fun here in Handtools, don't we!? :lol:
FWIW here's my attempt:

1 ... I
2 ... A
3 ... H
4 ... C
5 ... E
6 ... F
7 ... G
8 ... B
9 ... D

And the gauge line looks like the Tite mark?

If No 3 is the bow saw, please let me know quick! I'd need to cancel an order from Maine! :wink:

 

[Alf]

Crumbs, folks, I wish you'd all either put the number first or the letter! :roll: :lol:

Okay, HS takes on the role of tail-end Charlie with 2/9 , Derek opts for the scientific approach, and gets 3/9 (bad luck, Derek) while Aragorn storms into the lead with 7/9! :shock: However, 1 house point deducted for mis-identifying the gauge as a Tite-Mark instead of a Lee Valley 3 in 1. Tsk. :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Aragorn]

Damn, I knew I should have put the 3 in 1 :twisted:
Case of head ruling the heart there, as I assumed, if you still had the review tite mark, you'd be using that as a preference.

EDIT: Just realised that we can work out the correct answer now by a comparison of our answers and the marks you've already given.mind you, I'll leave that to someone with slightly more time than I have right now... :roll:

 

[Alf]

Damn, I knew I should have put the 3 in 1 :twisted:
Case of head ruling the heart there, as I assumed, if you still had the review tite mark, you'd be using that as a preference.

Erm, you still would have got it wrong then...

EDIT: Just realised that we can work out the correct answer now by a comparison of our answers and the marks you've already given.mind you, I'll leave that to someone with slightly more time than I have right now... :roll:

I thought that. And then I thought no one would be such as sad a case as to actually do it. Would they...? :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Alf

Thanks for totally demolishing my belief in myself! I have been huddled in the corner of my office obsessing about the choices I could have made, didn't make, should have made ... and I am back on my medication.

The only thing that will put an end to the state of affairs are the answers. Please let us know. I am too lazy to work them out.

Thanks really for a fun activity

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Alf]

Sorry folks, didn't mean to leave you in suspenders like that. Behold! The awful truth, from left to right:

1/I. Dozuki 26ppi (10 strokes)
2/A. Dozuki (western handle) 18ppi (8 strokes)
3/C. 8" DT, 15ppi rip (10 strokes)
4/H. 10" R Sorby DT, 15ppi rip (7 strokes)
5/E. 10" Woods (tool chest), 13ppi rip (10 strokes)
6/F. 10" Governor 13ppi x-cut (5 strokes)
7/G. 14" Tenon 12ppi X-cut (5 stokes)
8/B. Bow saw (10 strokes)
9/D. 18" panel saw 8ppi X-cut (6 strokes)

The number of "strokes" is more like the number of back and forth motions it took to get started plus the number of strokes to actually do the cut - hence the abnomally high figures for the rip saws 'cos I'm out of practice. It might have helped if I'd done something about the bench wobble too... The 8" DT is a little different. Although the teeth were filed straight across like a rip, the rake angle is that of a X-cut. Made it easy to start, but sloooooow. The tenon (14", not 12" - sorry) bounced around like crazy hence the mess at the top of the cut, while the panel saw did amazingly well considering the thinness of the stock. The Governor and Wood saws both have rather too much set for dovetailling, but they make good small "tenon" saws. The Sorby raced through the cut so quickly I overshot the line - a really nice saw, sadly past its prime.

On the whole, I think the reason for using a rip tooth for dovetails is pretty obvious. And going on these results it isn't one of speed... :shock: So I've learnt something anyway!

Cheers, Alf

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

The tenon (14", not 12" - sorry)

Well Alf, that error put us all out. No doubt we would have otherwise had perfect scores!

On the whole, I think the reason for using a rip tooth for dovetails is pretty obvious. And going on these results it isn't one of speed...

Are you saying that the rip cuts smoother than a crosscut or x-cut tooth?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Aragorn]

Thanks for taking the time to do that Alf. Very interesting, and I feel reassured that I did in fact order the right saw from Maine afterall!

What's next? Matching the shaving to the plane? :lol:

 

[Alf]

Are you saying that the rip cuts smoother than a crosscut or x-cut tooth?

I'll confine myself to saying the rip kerfs seem to be considerably cleaner IMO. :wink: Which may or may not be justification enough to use a rip tooth for dovetailing. Oh boy, this fence is an umcomfortable seat...

Hmm, shavings to plane... That could be fun. Wish I'd thought of doing this when I had all the marking gauges. :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Mdotflorida]

And they say entertainment is dead !!

Sad to say all my saws 'plug in' but very interesting. Thanks Alf

Jeff

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I'll confine myself to saying the rip kerfs seem to be considerably cleaner IMO.

Mmm, Alf I will have to pick at that one and suggest that it is the amount of set together with the number of teeth that determines the cleanliness of the kerf, and not the type of tooth configuration, per se.

The more I use my LN Independence the more I like it (in other words it takes practice). But for the best finished cut I will always turn to a Japanese saw. My Z saws are quite cheap but the 23 tpi (vs 15 tpi of the LN), very fine blade (.01" vs the .02" of the LN) and minimal set (.016" vs the .026" of the LN) are able to leave a glassy finish that even the LN cannot match.

Still, I generally turn to Western dovetail saws on hardwoods since the Japanese teeth are just too fragile, and it is this factor that dictates my choice rather than the absolute smoothness of the cut. I certainly don't complain about the smoothness of the LN, only about the difficulty in starting the cut. (Incidentally, what made me choose #6 as the bowsaw was the memory of watching Tage Frid on his dovetail video trying to start the cut, and his bowsaw bouncing all over the show :shock: :shock: ).

Regards from Perth

Derek