too close to talking about woodworking for your tastes?
Who do you follow on YouTube?
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too close to talking about woodworking for your tastes?
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Too honest isn't a bad thing if you actually want to become capable instead of pretending.
Frequently pointing this out might not be bad either,
unless you faced getting locked up for criticizing someones "lifestyle"......
in which case you'd might take some lessons from Jordon Peterson about that.
I hear they've been after him for quite a while.
Frequently pointing this out might not be bad either,
unless you faced getting locked up for criticizing someones "lifestyle"......
in which case you'd might take some lessons from Jordon Peterson about that.
I hear they've been after him for quite a while.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Who has been after him?
They haven't had much success he pops up all over the place, even on woodwork forums!
Are we talking cancel culture and no-platforming here?
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Is that reason enough for anyone to discredit actual techniques?, I think not,
unless one has already put their eggs in one basket.
You folks do know there's a mute button on youtube, you don't need to listen,
just see with your eyes.
Can't argue with sensible woodworking.
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what your point is.
I guess my point is, I'm telling you why Paul's information is bad. Obviously, it fits a pattern (paul's pattern), but I've had three of those plastic handle stanley planes, and I've used two of them appreciably more than the other (the one that I just got, I put in the trash yesterday - it was more of a curiosity shot and rather than figure out what to do with it, I'm sending it to waste management and I'll let them figure it out).
Embedded in paul's blogs is always nonsense, and some of it is misleading. Plastic handles, not the biggest deal in the world, but I would bet very poor odds at lloyds that he's never seen anyone break plastic handles in use because it was cold. So why put it in there? It all adds to the "I'm the arbiter of what you need to know".
But, for woodworking - it doesn't matter if you're a beginner or spent 10 years taking test shavings and you're ready to move up. Talking about other subjects and scuffling over telling other people what they should or shouldn't talk about is an instant reward. Charging yourself with making things, talking about them, and ignoring anyone critical about it is a delayed reward, but it's one much greater. It's worth figuring out. I'm somewhat interested in how we can actually get people to talk about woodworking, and some of that is getting away from the idea that "this one guy has the way".
some of paul's advice is the kind that will convince you that certain things in hand work are too hard, like basic routine planing that was matured 225 years ago, and now is somehow off the table.
I don't tend to snark peoples' attempts at good work, even when they're beginners. I don't think too many here do, and I'm not by any means a fine maker - just an intermediate amateur whose tool knowledge is past my knowledge especially of furniture making. But that thing still nags at me - why does almost nobody want to talk about actual woodwork - especially on the hand tool side, and when someone does post it (not me, nobody has to celebrate anything I've made) why does it usually bring crickets.
On the tool front, if you learn two things from me that paul doesn't seem to be able to teach and you can apply them and you tell everyone I'm a terrible person, that's still a good trade to me. If you learn two things that i don't know and bring them back to the forums and the gurus never come up at all in any of it, and I learn something good, that would be fantastic.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Just compare all folks approaches, generally the folks who's really got something to say, can back it up if you seek it out.
There's a lot of absolute bull about which is plain to see, if you compare.
One's opinion or feelings, is best not compromised by way of their wallet.
This happens a lot, as is evident in lots of ways.
Some may dislike Cosman even more, but I'd rather be fooled into buying a tool that I didn't need rather than useless information, as I could sell one, but not the other.
All the best
Tom
thetyreman
Established Member
I've yet to see cosman make even one useful video where I've thought 'ah yes that's really good I'll try that' literally nothing he's ever done, but instead of moaning about it I just don't watch it and move on.
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
All my planes have wooden handles, but doing a quick search, I see this has come up before, and on this forum. It seems PS wrote about it 6 years ago. I suppose what puzzles me is why you think he'd make something like that up - just because you've never come across the problem doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't happened. I've never suffered from gout.
Maybe he's planning to market a range of beech upgrade plane handles?
To be honest, the whole "lifestyle" bit irritates me too - much more so in his written stuff than the videos, but I wouldn't think to denigrate his value as a teacher based on that. His grammar's not too hot either, but he has been making stuff for a living for many years, whereas, with all due respect, I get the impression that D_W is more of a hobbyist.
Maybe he's planning to market a range of beech upgrade plane handles?
To be honest, the whole "lifestyle" bit irritates me too - much more so in his written stuff than the videos, but I wouldn't think to denigrate his value as a teacher based on that. His grammar's not too hot either, but he has been making stuff for a living for many years, whereas, with all due respect, I get the impression that D_W is more of a hobbyist.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Just because you might be familiar with much sensible methods of his,
i.e not planing a panel in a vice, or not sawing into your bench,
doesn't mean that it may be new to other newcomers.
Fair to say the work is much more honest than the other chap.
thetyreman
Established Member
It's fair to say that cosman is 100% a conman and snake oil salesman, I have actually watched some videos all the way through and still get nothing from it, I'm not one of these people with ultra short attention spans, in fact the more I watch it the more baffled I am by him and the more I dislike him.
I guess here's a poll - who here used an undamaged plastic handled stanley plane and broke the handles on it.
I hate to say it (OK, I don't actually) , but I have broken handles on several planes. I just broke a plastic handle on a belt sander, and breaking them gave a clue as to how and why the breaks in various plane handles are where they are. Almost without exception, handle breaks in wooden and metal planes are due to someone dropping the plane. it doesn't have to be far.
I've dropped a bunch of saws by accident, too
Stanley planes with plastic handles won't suffer a drop too well. the ones with hard rubber probably would.
wooden planes can fall and land on their *sides* without the handle hitting the floor and the handle will break off even when it's flexed all over the place for hundreds of board feet of wood.
You are right, I am an amateur. I could make tools professionally, but I choose not to. I have occasionally made things out of wood for people / community organizations locally and fixed things on offer of being paid, but then choose not to accept payment for them. That's a personal thing for me, which direction do I want to go and who do I want to make things for. I do often charge for materials and consumables when making tools or knives, but nothing more. it seems not unfair to me if I'm sure that the item being made is comparable to something that would cost 5 times as much made at profit, for example.
The person reason that I don't just shut down all of the experimenting and just make things for pay is I watched my mother do it. She was sort of a wide eyed artist, but at some point, she got frustrated with what she could get for her artwork and started making painted stuff for the craft circuit. And she began to really like the feedback and the satisfaction of getting paid. She did it for 40 years and completely dropped everything that she really otherwise enjoyed.
as soon as you start offering things for sale, I've already had the problem with chisels a little bit - you begin to get emails from people you don't know asking if you'll make them something because they got a hold of a couple of your tools, and it would take little time to fall into the trap of having that be all consuming, even though you could charge and make money. People will try to throw money at you and offer ridiculous amounts - would they follow through and pay? i don't know. I'll do something professionally when I retire and there is time to do the curious part and the paying part.
he is focused on two things, and some of this is my opinion:
1) bringing in beginners and continuing to bring them in
2) offering two different revenue streams
I've said before on here several times - if you're just starting out and you have to get to cosman or sellers and that's how you get here, that's fine. with either one of them, if you have had no chance at all to get in the shop and you're still hooked after a year, I guess hit the reset button and count another year.
if you're in the shop making things, you've got to find something you want to make well and really go further on your own because those guys are a dead end.
I don't think it's reasonable to believe you can really create a business like either paul or rob has and offer a ladder of true improvement and perhaps resulting in things like lonnie bird's students make, or NBSS students. the number of people who actually get involved and who will want to do that is too small, and the second a group of new beginners is looking for the "three chord song book" equivalent and you're talking about something a level up, they'll look for the next guy.
it's necessity.
both of the guys now have a business with employees - they have other obligations, and making you good at getting better woodworking and developing as a maker and seeking more information isn't going to be their goal. I'd struggle with that as a business owner if I were in their shoes, because then it's not just "I'll give as good of advice as a I can, and if it puts me out of business eventually, that's OK".
thetyreman
Established Member
raffo
Established Member
If you can manage to get past D_W's off putting kind of know-it-all attitude you'll find that he has good information to offer. I sympathize with his attitude regarding the output of the internet gurus. I opinion is that their objective is to create content to be consumed, whether it is useful or gets you past the novice stage is not their main goal.
Yes, the whole lifestyle pseudo-philosophy side is BS. Reminds me of all the personality worship of the western pseudo-spiritual crowd.
This reminds me of JP Sears, he's very funny.
Stigmorgan
Established Member
Odair Lucas just released this 
It's only in a narrow range. I guess it's a sign of giving up on the idea of what usually happens. "why should i believe you over _____".
Advice is then chosen based on personality or perceived personality things. People seem to like either cosman or sellers because they imagine things they like about both people and don't know them deeply personally so they assume that nothing unlikeable would be there.
sort of the same thing that happens when people like celebrities or someone locally who seems to be someone they admire, and have resentment for friends and relatives strictly because they know more about those folks.
what's less easy to figure out (I have no reservations about saying I know more about planes or hand tools in general than paul, and rob may be sitting on secrets, but I doubt he knows as much about planes as I do - both of them know more than I do on a huge menu of other topics, not the least of which is not turning off beginners) - is weeding out the people who really aren't looking to progress unless it only makes them feel good.
or put differently, for anyone where the conduit is more important than the result, there's not much chance of success.
And that is exactly what moved a lot of the fine workers off of the forums - seeing that the outcome of providing good advice didn't result in it being used. I remember George (who knows 100x more about 100x more things than I do) eventually got to the point where he would not apologize for being direct about things where his background is definitive and deeper.
Selling the message to everyone is a much more nuanced shell game or exclusion of things in some cases. As in, a good salesman doesn't talk about a competitor at all, and they also stay away from whether or not what they're selling or advising is better for them than it is you - it's practical avoidance for the goal.
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
It would be a fairly meaningless poll, as this forum is majority UK based, and the stuff I read was talking about the plastic becoming brittle at very low temperatures. The sample size would be miniscule, in my opinion.I guess here's a poll - who here used an undamaged plastic handled stanley plane and broke the handles on it.
I hate to say it (OK, I don't actually) , but I have broken handles on several planes. I just broke a plastic handle on a belt sander, and breaking them gave a clue as to how and why the breaks in various plane handles are where they are. Almost without exception, handle breaks in wooden and metal planes are due to someone dropping the plane. it doesn't have to be far.
I've dropped a bunch of saws by accident, too
Stanley planes with plastic handles won't suffer a drop too well. the ones with hard rubber probably would.
wooden planes can fall and land on their *sides* without the handle hitting the floor and the handle will break off even when it's flexed all over the place for hundreds of board feet of wood.
You are right, I am an amateur. I could make tools professionally, but I choose not to. I have occasionally made things out of wood for people / community organizations locally and fixed things on offer of being paid, but then choose not to accept payment for them. That's a personal thing for me, which direction do I want to go and who do I want to make things for. I do often charge for materials and consumables when making tools or knives, but nothing more. it seems not unfair to me if I'm sure that the item being made is comparable to something that would cost 5 times as much made at profit, for example.
The person reason that I don't just shut down all of the experimenting and just make things for pay is I watched my mother do it. She was sort of a wide eyed artist, but at some point, she got frustrated with what she could get for her artwork and started making painted stuff for the craft circuit. And she began to really like the feedback and the satisfaction of getting paid. She did it for 40 years and completely dropped everything that she really otherwise enjoyed.
as soon as you start offering things for sale, I've already had the problem with chisels a little bit - you begin to get emails from people you don't know asking if you'll make them something because they got a hold of a couple of your tools, and it would take little time to fall into the trap of having that be all consuming, even though you could charge and make money. People will try to throw money at you and offer ridiculous amounts - would they follow through and pay? i don't know. I'll do something professionally when I retire and there is time to do the curious part and the paying part.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I've got an old Stanley 3 which is top quality in every way. Took me some time to realise it had plastic handles. Knob and handle both perfectly shaped and look like some sort of rosewood. Then I noticed a trace of a seam across the top of the handle, not the knob.
OTOH some wooden handles are c rap.
Hope that helps!
OTOH some wooden handles are c rap.
Hope that helps!
