Which Norris ?

[Ian Dalziel]

At peak I owned over 400 planes of which there were generally 60 to 80 in working order - I had more than 60 Sargents at one time for example whilst my Record and Stanley counts both exceeded 100 at times. Largest number of Norrises at any one time was 34, all useable. Now that's what they call being hooked

ohh yes you were definately hooked....looking at Phillys get together he is already there. way ahead of me :?


David.....that is a good book you got...i like Garrets other books as well. well worth reading.

another couple of books I have enjoyed reading recently are
Patented transitional and metallic planes in america vol 1 and 2 but are quite pricey, and more for the stanley enthusiast. Excellant books none the less

Let's leave the master planemaker to the gentry out of this, shall we?

well with the 98 he did make them fashionable again. He is involved behind the scenes with a few other plane projects and makers :wink:

I

 

[-David-]

Sorry about delay - got nice blue conical flame at last .

Yes, I admit it, I know more about Aga's than planes - out of the closet at last - phew what a relief :wink: .

As I am not a cabinetmaker or anything approaching what could be called fine work it is pointless speculating on the very high end hand crafted masterpieces - they would just be wasted on me. If truth be known a well tuned Stanley would probably do me.

I have a Bailey 4,5 & 8.
Stanley 10 rabbet
Record 04
Stanley Bedrock 604 1/2 which looks very similar to LN 4 1/2"

Rownson Drew shoulder plane ?

And this one which as yet I have not been able to identify.

Nearly 3kg
Closed handle
Screw Cap as Norris
What seems to be a one piece cast body - very rectangular - 8 1/4" X 2 5/8" sole and 2 1/2" high.
No makers mark or any marks at all.
Overall length 11"
2 1/4" throat?

Back to the comfort Zone of the Aga.

David

 

[Scrit]

And this one which as yet I have not been able to identify.

Nearly 3kg
Closed handle
Screw Cap as Norris
What seems to be a one piece cast body - very rectangular - 8 1/4" X 2 5/8" sole and 2 1/2" high.
No makers mark or any marks at all.
Overall length 11"
2 1/4" throat?

Hmmmm. Norris weren't the only infill makers by a long chalk - there was Spiers, Preston, Marples, Mathieson and Slater to name just five more (although I think that Spiers and Mathieson didn't do cast smoothers, but I'll happily stand corrected on that one). Then there were those enterprising iron founders, particilurlay it seems north of the border, who cast bodies for tradesmen to finish off themselves - as a point of fact that's how Stuart Spiers started out.....

I think we need to see acouple of photos. :-k

Scrit

 

[Alf]

.... it's solely 'cos I didn't think I'd hear advice to buy a bevel-up from one of these old pros who's seen it all, s'all.

Oi! Who're you calling old?

Pesky spell checker - it was meant to say "wise" #-o :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[-David-]

Lets see if this works :?

David

 

[-David-]

:evil:



:roll:

 

[-David-]

I have a bad feeling about this -

David

 

[Scrit]

Hi David

The first is a nice early non-adjuster Norris #2, as identified. The cutter us definately too narrow and non-original. The other I think I'd describe as a.....

as a......

Frankenplane - craftsman made but where on earth did he get that shape? Oh, and how well does it plane?

Scrit

 

[-David-]

Scrit

Frankenplane ? Isn't that a cobbled together piece? apart from non original cutter an cap iron it is all integral like a more modern take of a Norris type. It is a one piece casting with fine machine marks on the outside.

I suppose it could be an apprentice piece? The visual design feels a bit American.

Oh, and how well does it plane?

I'll come back to you on that one!

David

 

[Scrit]

I'll stick with my original description. Until the 1950s it was possible to buy pre-cast bronze/brass screw lever caps from various places (Charles Stirling at Bristol Design still does them). The blades were an off the shelf item, too. That suggests to me that either someone was making plane bodies to standard designs (indeed someone must have been as that's what allegedly started Stuart Spiers off in the early 19th Century) or that tradesmen were making their own casting patterns and having the bodies cast. There's certainly still one ferrous founder in this area who will cast almost anything you want as long as you turn-up with a wooden pattern. And I've had milling done for me in the past as a barter-favour: machine two spindle fence locking bolts (16in long @ £ 80 each from SCM) for one set of very heavy duty shelves and some drawer repairs to an old chest. Perhaps your maker even worked in a foundry or a patternmaker's shop? After all, patternmakers frequently made almost all their own tools and if the fit of the infill to the body is good that would possibly be the case. But in terms of design it's nothing like any plane I've seen come from a planemaker

Actually, it doesn't matter what it looks like - it's how well does it work that's the most important bit. Because it's a home-brew job, if it planes well then that's the one to keep as it will have a lower percieved value. Use the Norris to fund something else you want

Scrit

 

[Ian Dalziel]

David,
first is a nice Norris 2, lower one i'm not so sure.

reading Scrits reply i would probobly agree on a homebrew.
The overstuffing looks to be well done and the rear handle looks custom.
what scrit says about a patternmaker is possible but i would go for a cabinetmaker who new someone that could cast.
The casting looks a fair bit pitted, and probobly a one off. The pattermakers i know wouldnt have used a casting with imperfections on it like that, they are generally quite fussy and would have remelted and made a another,
hence i plump for a cabinetmaker with a casting friend hence nice woodwork but casting with imperfections.

it should still be possible to get it working fine though and the weight of it would make it an asset for using.

Ian

 

[-David-]

Thanks for all your observations, I am now very much the wiser.

Because I have just learnt how to post pics today, please let me indulge myself and post these two planes. I promise not to add any more - honest!


No marks on this one.

Rownson Drew & Co on this one. And no cutter.

David

 

[Scrit]

Probably more Alf's field than mine :lol: At first sight the upper one looks like a one-sided door check plane, a type of plane used to clean-out door casing rebates (wide, shallow rebates), but a type of plane which I've only seen double sided. It was really a carraige maker's plane. In reality I reckon it's a wooden jack which has been converted by the tradesman presumably so that it could be used to clean-out wide shallow rebates such as door casing rebates and/or to field panels (with the slip removed) whilst fulfilling its' main role as a jack with the slip screwed in place. Possibly converted by someone who'd seen a door check plane in a carraige makers and wanted the use of one without the need to carry two planes to site.

The lower is a plough with a screw depth adjuster, used to "plough" grooves with the grain. It should have a set of 8 tapered plough irons, from 1/8 to 9/16 in in 1/8in increments of 1/16in . These normally have a rather distinctive v-groove up the back so that they'll rest on the steel sole plate a bit better

I'll now stand back whilst Alf tells me I'm completely mistaken.... again :wink:

Scrit

 

[Alf]

Don't look at me. Having seen Philly's bookshelves I'm totally out-classed in reference books on wooden planes! :lol: Looks like rather a handy conversion on the jack, though. BPMs merely has the Rownson Drew & Co stamp and no other info at all, not even location.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Scrit]

BPM = Goodman?

Don't you find it interesting how tradesmen were once more than happy to modify tools to meet an end?

Scrit

 

[Alf]

Yeah, sorry - British Planemakers from 1700 by W L Goodman, Edited by J & M Rees, 3rd Edition (I should have that handy to copy 'n' paste and save heaps of time. :lol: )

The altering and adapting thing is interesting, yeah. I've got one or two examples about the place - a skew rebate neatly turned into a moving fillister f'rinstance. Not so sure about the "bullnose" round, but the owner must have had a need for it. I must confess to having had the heebie-jeebies about doing it myself until coming under Rob's evil influence, and I do still pause for thought before starting. Our antipodean cousins don't seem to have a problem with it though.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Scrit]

The look of the slip reminds me of the removaeble slipd you see on some beaders, although for the life of me I've never found a need to remove one

Scrit

 

[bugbear]

Thanks for all your observations, I am now very much the wiser.

Because I have just learnt how to post pics today, please let me indulge myself and post these two planes. I promise not to add any more - honest!

No marks on this one.

Really? That does surprise me on such a nicely made tool. Check the toe front carefully, possibly cleaning it using a brass brush (e.g. suede brush) with thin beeswax and turpentine polish.

I've seen a few of these. I've always presumed (disclaimer) that they were an easier (hence cheaper) to build variation on the badger plane.

The ones I've seen have such a good fit with the slip piece, and such even and consistent patination between the slip and the body that I've presumed (again!) that this was factory made, not user converted.

BugBear

 

[-David-]

My apologies - old age / failing sight/ patina / grime etc. etc.

Yes bugbear - I. SORBY SHEFFIELD on toe (with logo in middle)

Alf - same excuses, the Rownson Drew & co has LONDON imprinted

David

 

[Alf]

Thanks, David; I've added an annotation to that effect in my copy of BPMs

Cheers, Alf