Which motor for 100mm cyclone?

[JoshD]

@Inspector Pete, @MikeK , I'm starting to go round in circles now; if I get say the Dust DeputySuper XL and I vent the cyclone indoors through suitably micro HEPA filters, won't I just have built something essentially the same as the Laguna PFLUX3, the difference being that the PFLUX3 is (in principle) made of matched components? And I'm not sure there would be much saving over buying the PFLUX3 when all is said and done .....

Sorry @Grantx , I hope you don't mind me pretty much hijacking your thread.
JOsh

 

[MikeK]

@Inspector Pete, @MikeK , I'm starting to go round in circles now; if I get say the Dust DeputySuper XL and I vent the cyclone indoors through suitably micro HEPA filters, won't I just have built something essentially the same as the Laguna PFLUX3, the difference being that the PFLUX3 is (in principle) made of matched components? And I'm not sure there would be much saving over buying the PFLUX3 when all is said and done .....

Sorry @Grantx , I hope you don't mind me pretty much hijacking your thread.
JOsh

If the Laguna PFlux 3 had been available when I started (or had I known about it), I would have seriously considered it instead of building my own if the cost was close to the cost of my component system and it was available with a 400V 3-phase motor. All new residential buildings in Germany for at least the past 25 years or so are built with 400/230V 3-phase electrical distribution, so I try to buy 3-phase shop equipment when it is available.

The matching components aren't important to me since the major items are the blower assembly, cyclone, collection bin, and filter and they all tend to work the same. However I do like the "ooh and ahh factor" of integrated sensors for the filter and drum. The Laguna would just fit in my basement with about 90mm to spare.

Not including the ducting, which the Laguna doesn't have, the cost of my system with the SDD-XL is about half of the £3,099 list price of the PFlux 3.

 

[Inspector]

My dislike of the Laguna and similar machines being offered is that the filters are kept clean with paddles of one sort or another. They will at some point rub holes in the cartridges and allow fine dust through and you have no way of knowing when that will happen. Laguna and the other venders do not give any kind of life information about their paddle filters. The HEPA filter after would hopefully be there to catch that dust, at least until it plugs the filter. Those without the HEPA filter and that would include the regular 2hp and 3hp DCs could spew dust for some time though the holes. Industrial systems usually use compressed air pulses to knock the dust off. They sound like shotguns being fired and in a home shot would bring unwanted attention. These days inexpensive particle counters are available that can be used to monitor the dust levels in a room which would warn you of leaks from a DC. Ultimately you have to decide if you want to buy and assemble pieces or spend more for a package solution. Upside to putting it together is being able to customize it to fit the space you have.

Here the ClearVue cyclones are in roughly the same price range as a Laguna and have 5hp motors. I went for the CV-Max and will be working on the ducting come the colder weather.

Pete

 

[JoshD]

Thanks both, very helpful

 

[Rorschach]

My dislike of the Laguna and similar machines being offered is that the filters are kept clean with paddles of one sort or another. They will at some point rub holes in the cartridges and allow fine dust through and you have no way of knowing when that will happen. Laguna and the other venders do not give any kind of life information about their paddle filters. The HEPA filter after would hopefully be there to catch that dust, at least until it plugs the filter. Those without the HEPA filter and that would include the regular 2hp and 3hp DCs could spew dust for some time though the holes. Industrial systems usually use compressed air pulses to knock the dust off. They sound like shotguns being fired and in a home shot would bring unwanted attention. These days inexpensive particle counters are available that can be used to monitor the dust levels in a room which would warn you of leaks from a DC. Ultimately you have to decide if you want to buy and assemble pieces or spend more for a package solution. Upside to putting it together is being able to customize it to fit the space you have.

Here the ClearVue cyclones are in roughly the same price range as a Laguna and have 5hp motors. I went for the CV-Max and will be working on the ducting come the colder weather.

Pete

Yes I am planning to remove the paddles from my filter for this reason. I don't use them now I learned that they can wear away the filter (I think mine is still fine as I didn't use them much anyway), but the paddles get in the way of my filter cleaning.

 

[JoshD]

BTW, in regard to the PFLUX3 the Laguna website says " Periodic cleaning of the HEPA filter is required using a compressed air supply. Air is blown from the outside of the canister, removing any particles attached to the inside of the filter material, bringing it back to full performance. " There's no mention of the risk of the neighbours calling the police to investigate gunshots ....

BUt agree with @Inspector that CV-Max (if available) is more compelling. I suspect carriage costs for private import would be huge ....

 

[MikeJhn]

Not to mention the risk to yourself and neighbours blowing this dust into the atmosphere, emptying the cyclone, or through venting to the outside, IMO double handling the dust collector is counterproductive, much easier and safer to just tie up the neck of a collection bag once full.

 

[Inspector]

Josh the gunshot noise is because they have a holding tank with large bore piping to the filters. When the tank is charged a controller triggers a solenoid that releases a large amount of air into the centre of one filter (industrial filters filter from outside to inside) shaking the dust cake off the filter so the cake drops into the tray at the bottom for later removal. The pressure builds and the next filter gets the pulse/blast of air. The cycle stops until all filters have been done a few times each. Used to take half and hour for the dozen filters in the dust booth, blasts about 30 seconds apart. It will resume either when manually turned on (break time, end of shift) or when the resistance to airflow through the filters increases to 3 or more inches of water. You can convert to whatever unit you like. This is all done while the system (collector, sanding booth, downdraft tables etc, is running. Those bangs are loud enough for office workers to gripe that are behind cement walls and double paned glass windows. Jolts them out of their stupor. Waving an air nozzle over a filter does not compare.

For what it is worth the Pentz/ClearVue cyclone is so good at separating dust that almost nothing gets to the filters and if venting outdoors can't be seen plus within a few yards is diluted into the background dust already in the air. A wood turner said he checked his filters after two years and there was under 50ml in them. The short cone cyclones are not as efficient so more dust gets to the filters, thus the paddles to keep them clean.

Pete

 

[Rorschach]

My cyclones are at least 99% efficient based on the amount of dust in the bucket compared to the amount of dust that makes it to the filters. Plenty good enough for me. I clean my filters about twice a year and empty my buckets every other month or so (I only produce super fine dust, no shavings). Filter bag gets washed, filter cartridge gets cleaned using a henry hoover connected to a dust deputy cyclone. The dust deputy is so good I don't think you could easily measure the efficiency, half a dozen bucket fulls of dust, shavings and other workshop rubbish barely discolours the hepa filter bag in Henry. I am still on the first bag. Before the henry I used a parkside shop vac, again only ever used one filter, washed it once or twice a year but it was barely dirty really.

 

[honza992]

Mike that looks like a great system. Can I ask where you bought the Wynn filters, or did you import them from the states. I can't find a European equivalent, though I feel as though someone like Donaldson should be able to do it....

Also, can I ask why you are upgrading? Other than the obvious wish to have more cfm. Or was there something more specific?

Is the box the filters hang in just a box with a holes in, or something more hi tech?

Thanks so much for sharing. Really useful for those of us designing a system. Was there a build thread?

I'm a hobby woodworker with a fully-enclosed basement shop, which was designed around a dust extraction system. At the time, I used a 3HP blower assembly, Oneida Super Dust Deputy Steel 5-inch cyclone, two Wynn MERV-15 canister filters, a 35-gallon plastic bin, and 120mm steel ducting with blast gates.

This is the enclosed dust extraction closet showing the heart of the system.

This are some images of the ducting as I was building the shop.

I am confident that my dust extraction system can be better, so I am replacing the 5-inch steel Super Dust Deputy (SDD) with the 6-inch Oneida Super Dust Deputy XL (SDD-XL). The 5-inch SDD is designed for blowers up to 3HP, while the SDD-XL is designed for blowers rated for 3-5HP. I will also be replacing the 120mm ducting with 160mm ducting and will only reduce to the machine port at the machine.

I bought my SDD-XL from Toolovation, and Martin was great to work with. Since the SDD-XL is larger than the SDD, I had to build a custom 35-gallon box using 19mm plywood. The platform holding the SDD will be lowered since I can't raise the blower assembly, so the plastic bin will be excess.

I will also take the time to fix design errors in my system and hopefully improve the flow.

 

[Inspector]

A UK based filter supplier either OEM or their own. Industrial Dust Cartridge Filters
A second UK supplier doing the same. Air filters, Equivalent Filter Cartridges, LEV Testing, COSHH Testing, Dust Filters Nottinghamshire, UK
Let them know what you are doing, the size, filter area and what level of filtration you are after too. The Wynn's are Merv 15 and are 300 square feet.

Pete

 

[honza992]

A UK based filter supplier either OEM or their own. Industrial Dust Cartridge Filters
A second UK supplier doing the same. Air filters, Equivalent Filter Cartridges, LEV Testing, COSHH Testing, Dust Filters Nottinghamshire, UK
Let them know what you are doing, the size, filter area and what level of filtration you are after too. The Wynn's are Merv 15 and are 300 square feet.

Pete

Thanks Pete, I'll take a look at those. Though...umm... I'm in Italy, any idea of an EU supplier? Brexit has made things a bit more tricky.....

 

[honza992]

This one from Donaldson is 30m2, so about the same as the Wynn. I'll give them a call...

https://shop.donaldson.com/store/en-ru/product/P511339-016-002/gP511339-016-002

 

[MikeK]

Mike that looks like a great system. Can I ask where you bought the Wynn filters, or did you import them from the states. I can't find a European equivalent, though I feel as though someone like Donaldson should be able to do it....

Also, can I ask why you are upgrading? Other than the obvious wish to have more cfm. Or was there something more specific?

Is the box the filters hang in just a box with a holes in, or something more hi tech?

Thanks so much for sharing. Really useful for those of us designing a system. Was there a build thread?

Thank you! I didn't make a build thread at UKW because I wasn't a member then, but when I rebuild the system, I'll make a build thread.

I ordered the filters directly from Wynn Environmental when I still had access to the U.S. Postal System (USPS) through the U.S. military. I spoke directly with Dick Wynn to have each filter double boxed so they would survive the shipping, which they did. I didn't have to worry about VAT or Customs by using the USPS, but now that I'm retired, I don't have access to the USPS. The commercial shipping costs from the U.S. to Germany would be substantially more than the cost of the filters. When the time comes for me replace them, I will look for a similar source in Europe.

I exchanged emails last year with Dan at DJN UK Ltd, but he didn't have anything that matched the dimensions of the Wynn filters. Thanks to a post by @DBT85 in the thread below, I now know of a good source, Nordic Air Filtration in Norway. The shipping might still be a bit expensive, but should not be as punishing as an Atlantic crossing.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/filtration-revisited.133345
I'm upgrading to correct design errors I made and increase the airflow. The current system works good, but I am confident that it can be better with the larger cyclone and ducting, especially when I remove the two 90-degree bends at the input to the cyclone.

There is nothing special about box holding the filters. I'll rebuild the box as part of the system upgrade to make a couple of improvements, but it is just a plenum attached to the exhaust side of the blower. I have some photos of the box on another computer and will add them to this thread later.

 

[Inspector]

This one from Donaldson is 30m2, so about the same as the Wynn. I'll give them a call...

https://shop.donaldson.com/store/en-ru/product/P511339-016-002/gP511339-016-002

Keep in mind industrial filters are made to filter from the outside in, opposite of home dust collectors. While they will still work orientating the airflow to go through from the outside is better as the filter media may have a surface on it that sheds dust better. All it really means is you make the box to hold the filters inside it and lets the air out through a hole the size of the inside of the filter. If they make them to order they can reverse the media to work from inside to outside.

All I can suggest is to search dust collector cartridge filter suppliers Italy or variations and see what comes up.
https://www.europages.co.uk/companies/Italy/dust filters.html
Pete

 

[baldkev]

Interestingly I found this:
https://www.indooroutdoors.co.uk/pr...xSlQE8dMw0nNQnA4YsD6IueK8h13F7IBoCYq4QAvD_BwE
600 quid though......