Which Bench Plane?

[Anonymous]

Derek

This is interesting

On the bronze #4 1/2, which is a high centre-of-gravity plane, I find the extra weight unbalances the plane.

How do you mean? Does it tip as you use it? or are you referring to when you lift it off the timber?
Or is it just a feeling of being unbalanced when in use?

I do find that I don't like using it without wax on the sole, as the mass in combination with the bronze sole make it difficult to push

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Tony

The owner of the iron #4 1/2 visited me from Sydney two weeks ago, and returned with his plane, so I no longer have it for direct comparison. What I say is from memory. However, he also noticed the phenomenon and came to the same conclusion.

I should not say that the bronze plane is now "unbalanced" - that is not perfectly accurate. The bronze #4 1/2 is different from the iron #4 1/2 on two accounts - it weighs more and the frog is bedded at 50 degrees to th 45 degrees of the iron version. With identical and freshly honed blades, the iron plane is so much easier to push and feels so much more "alive". The bronze plane feels "dead". This may partly be due to the frog, but I think that this is a small part (and, no, I did not swap the frogs around. I had planned to, then lost interest in the project). For a comparison, I swap out different angle blades on BU planes, and the higher cutting angles do not make a significant difference - certainly not the difference experienced between the total bronze and the total iron #4 1/2s.

It is the loss of "feel" that I should have referred to when I said loss of "balance". It is just that my experience (do not take this in a general sense) is that the heavier a high centre-of gravity plane (= metal) becomes, the less the "feel" it has. This is not about BD planes, because I happily use low centre-of-gravity BD woodies, such as the HNT Gordon planes. The 30" razee jointer I made a while ago is a BD plane. It has a lightness of feel that belies its weight and size.

The iron LN #4 1/2 is a very nice plane. It is not as nice in the hand as the Veritas BU Smoother. This is not a statement about performance. I am referring to "feel". Again I emphasize that this is a personal matter, and another individual may have a different set of preferences.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[dchenard]

Personally, I'm sold on BU planes, principally for the low center of gravity that makes the plane much easier to control, for starters.

I'm gonna put you on the hot seat now, kind of... Given the choice for smoothing surfaces (that we will assume to be flat to start with), what (Veritas) plane would you choose, the BU smoother or the LA Jack? Same iron, same lumber...

Interested in your opinion...

DC-C

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

the BU smoother or the LA Jack?

Denis

These are both wonderful planes. They are both capable of the finest performance as smoothers. I will use the LAJ when the piece is large and very flat. Otherwise it is going to flatten as well as smooth. It should be likened to a modern panel plane. Generally the BUS is the better choice because it has greater feel and obtains better feedback.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Philly]

Denis
I have both the LA Jack and BU Smoother - when in smoothing mode I use the one that is most appropriate for the length of timber being planed.
If planing short lengths the Jack can be awkward to start and finish without "rolling".
Another thought - by using a shorter plane as a smoother on large panels you can still get a fully planed surface even if the panel is not exactly flat - the longer the plane, the straighter the surface it planes. So by definition a smoother is a short plane - flattening is done by other planes.
In my opinion, the name panel plane (when used to describe a longer smoothing plane) really was just a label used by Old Timers to excuse the purchase of yet another beautiful infill plane to the Missus :lol:
Cheers
Philly

 

[Anonymous]

Derek

Maybe it is the frogs. Both of mine are 50 degree frogs which might well explain the difference in feeling you got from them.

I do, in all honesty, find some woods work best with the bronze, some the iron (possilby down to how sharp the blade is in each), and some the LV BU smoother :?

(but generally, when all are freshly sharpened, I find the bronze 4.5 works the best for me )

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

by using a shorter plane as a smoother on large panels you can still get a fully planed surface even if the panel is not exactly flat - the longer the plane, the straighter the surface it planes. So by definition a smoother is a short plane - flattening is done by other planes.

Hi Philly

Agreed. I think that Denis meant which plane is preferred on the assumption that the surface is already perfectly flat. Had he not, the point you raised would have been the first I made.

It is very important, more so in all likelihood among workers who thickness and flatten everything without power (I still lack a power jointer, so this issue is dearer to my heart). I think that this often gets missed as a result. A short smoother will finish without requiring a clinically flat surface. The old coffin smoothers and infill smoothers were very short planes. My Spier is just 7 1/2" long. I find use for a 60 degree Mujingfang mini smoother that is 3" long. Others may view this as a block plane because of its length. It is not.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[dchenard]

by using a shorter plane as a smoother on large panels you can still get a fully planed surface even if the panel is not exactly flat - the longer the plane, the straighter the surface it planes. So by definition a smoother is a short plane - flattening is done by other planes.

Hi Philly

Agreed. I think that Denis meant which plane is preferred on the assumption that the surface is already perfectly flat. Had he not, the point you raised would have been the first I made.

It is very important, more so in all likelihood among workers who thickness and flatten everything without power (I still lack a power jointer, so this issue is dearer to my heart). I think that this often gets missed as a result. A short smoother will finish without requiring a clinically flat surface. The old coffin smoothers and infill smoothers were very short planes. My Spier is just 7 1/2" long. I find use for a 60 degree Mujingfang mini smoother that is 3" long. Others may view this as a block plane because of its length. It is not.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, you kind of answered a question of mine without me asking :-k

If I read you and Philly correctly, when the surface is less than "clinically flat", to use your expression, then a shorter plane is desirable to allow to take full length shavings nonetheless and get a smooth surface?

I am not about to give you grief for this, I do have a powered jointer and planer, without these I would probably be less fussy about surface flatness, and elect a different plane as my favourite... :wink:

Yet, given a choice... At the first Plane Orgy I held two years ago, I had the opportunity to "test-drive" in succession, the Veritas #4 and #4 1/2, the Low Angle Smoother, the Bevel-Up Smoother, and the Low Angle Jack. Of these four smoothers I liked the LAS best for the feedback it gave me. The BUS felt to me too heavy for its length and kind of numb in its feel, and the BD smoothers, while performing very well, did not "stir my juices". But the LAJ provided me with the same kind of feedback that the LAS gave me, with the added length and weight that makes the plane more stable. Just to show that, beyond performance, plane characteristics are a personal matter...

DC-C

I do own that short Mujingfang smoother, quite enjoyable a plane...

 

[Philly]

Denis
You are right - the LA Jack has a magic combination of weight, balance and feel. And of course performance!!
I found the LAS too light and didn't enjoy it - the BUS was completely different, much more to my liking.
Cheers
Philly

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Denis

Not only can I accept what you say, I will go so far as to agree with you about the LAS. I frequently state that it is one of my favourite planes - because it offers such wonderful feedback. When I compared it to the BUS (in my review of the BUS), I concluded that the BUS is able to work with less effort, but it does so also with less feedback.

I really like using the LAJ as a smoother - when the occasion permits. But I do not own a power jointer, and so I need to use a shorter smoother a lot of the time. However, when it comes down to balance, I agree that the LAJ has it over the BUS.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Bob N]

Derek,

Of the 2 (LAS and LAJ with multiple blades), if you could have only one for your shop, which would you choose ?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Bob

As regular users here would tell you, the LAS and the LAJ are different beasts. It really will come down to the size of work you do, and how you work.

The LAS is a small plane used to smooth only or on a shooting board. The LAJ is a large plane that can flatten as well as smooth and shoot edges. But read the previous remarks about smoother length to judge what you want from a smoother.

Ideally you would want both.

Regards from Perth

Derek