Where did the knowledge about the capiron get lost?

[D_W]

DW. It might explain why Veritas then moved on to these; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyPK1IppxqU

Stewie;

Could be. I don't know what their reasoning was. I'll bet they had noticed that everyone seems to want something different, and put a platform together to attempt to provide choice.

It might also be from what you suggested; I think that the technical advice that Rob and those in charge get may not be very good.

Stewie;

I don't think it's implied as such, but id like to make clear that I'm not talking about derek, but rather internally. I'm speculating in general, as it's not as if I know, but I know derek has been on board with the cap iron from the start.

 

[swagman]

DW. Personally; I cant see the merit of using a cap iron to control tear out above york pitch.

Why Veritas made the decision to skip york pitch in favor of middle pitch as a standard issue within their range of interchangable frogs does raise some unanswered questions on their technical insight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyPK1IppxqU

http://www.handplane.com/45/perfect-pit ... explained/

Stewie;

 

[D_W]

I got a chuckle out of this on the handplanes page:

"Japanese style planes don't need a chipbreaker because the blades are usually quite thick."

One of the best things I've done so far in making a japanese plane nicer to use for middle work is to work the dai a little at the escapement so it's easier to set the cap iron.

As far as the 55 and 45 gap for stock pitch, I guess you can custom order 50. I don't actually see a reason to have even 50 if one is using the cap iron capably. 45 is ideal to me, you can only just set the cap off in heavy work and have disaster prevention (in a penultimate plane) and set it close for finishing for smoothing. I've been away from the bench for a while, but just sized 6 and thicknessed stock for 6 moulding plane blanks from rough tonight and I'd hate to make it any harder than it has to be. quartered beech yields nicely to a plane with the cap set, and evenly so you can size stocks for pairs very quickly.

I only wish it sawed as easily (speaking of ripping long rough lumber, the small lengths obviously don't provide much challenge).

Oh.. I've got a guess why there's 55 and 45. I think most people looking for a do all plane with the cap iron will not want higher than 45 degrees because the implication of a less nice finish in softwood. Anyone buying 55 is probably not going to use the cap iron to control tearout, that's just a guess.

 

[condeesteso]

This has become a substantial thread, and generally the chat has been around Bailey-style planes. For those of us who will find time to break off from making in order to tune a plane or two can I mention woodies? Discussions have mentioned tight mouths but with the typical old woodie that is not an option (unless you do an insert). I am a fan of jacks - I personally find smoothers too short, too tall and the ergonomics don't work for me. But the jack can be tuned to be a really good smoother for panels etc - OK, not for localised due to bed length, but for larger areas. It's all there to play with in a simple package: hefty laminated irons, hefty caps and otherwise an appealing simplicity with some variables deleted (no frog, no mouth adjustment). I almost always find a little time spent tuning a woodie is rewarded, and it might inform more widely on the subject of plane tuning. The same point would apply to infills but generally speaking I can grab a woodie jack for a tenner or so, a decent infill adds a nought (or so). And I'm not saying a tight mouth doesn't make a difference - just that I am not personally convinced. This pic is not a tricky wood, I'll try and get some that are!

 

[matt_southward]

DennisCA - from my own experience a few days ago (where after this endless cap iron debate I revisited my old WS no 4). I would suggest you look at the quality of the meeting surfaces between the cap iron and the iron. I had exactly the same symptoms as you - exactly! I went back over the cap iron as suggested by Richard Maguire (ex of workbench fame) and undercut the leading edge of my cap iron - by hanging off the edge of my coarse stone - until the there was a good clean edge which mated perfectly with the iron. I also ensured there was something like a 50 degree, clean angle to the top of the cap iron. The results were pretty impressive as I could take a pretty thick shaving - definitely not wispy - which also came straight up out of the throat, with the cap iron set - 'gnat's nadger' close ( I didn't measure it) whereas before that I got the concertina shavings, with the cap iron less close. It also sounded right.
Worth a try?

 

[bugbear]

... and undercut the leading edge of my cap iron - by hanging off the edge of my coarse stone - until the there was a good clean edge which mated perfectly with the iron.

I can recommend diamond stones for this kind of grinding/tuning. About the right level of grit, and reliably flat.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

More variables with many of them interacting.

Yeah - exploring non-linear performance envelopes with multiple local minima and maxima is always "interesting".

BugBear

 

[condeesteso]

woodie just for info. A lot is spoken of difficult woods like bird's eye and some of the exotics, but far closer to my day-to-day are the inoccuous ones - ash for example. Looks harmless, grain flow lying just a few degrees off surface, hard to read sometimes - then wham, one big deep tear. Basically I think the low incident angles between surface and flow are the tricky bits, knots are easy in comparison.
Here is oak dead against grain, needed flatting first with a proper jack, then my razee tuned quite fine:

Beech, same, against grain flowing a few degrees against surface

In background there is the earlier waste with a slightly heavier cut. I can't really show the beech finish, it is silky, honest.

Not the biggest mouth I've seen on a woodie, but not tight... about a Joan Rivers say

Cap setting, a fair camber still

 

[G S Haydon]

Douglas I'm equally partial to the woodies! It is interesting to note that when browsing e-bay, boot sale etc you don't tend to find any single iron bench planes.
I think it's pretty clear the cap iron added versatility otherwise why bother! It's a lot of extra work to make a double iron and I'm sure tradespeople would not have wasted the extra money unless they saw benefit.

 

[Beau]

Had a go with a super close set cap iron (0.1) yesterday. What looked like a shaving just turned to crumbs between my figures. Also the finish it left was not exactly silky. Is this what's to be expected with a super close cap iron?

 

[D_W]

Had a go with a super close set cap iron (0.1) yesterday. What looked like a shaving just turned to crumbs between my figures. Also the finish it left was not exactly silky. Is this what's to be expected with a super close cap iron?

No, that's too close. You should get a solid shaving from the start to the end of the cut and it should look just a little bit different than a normal shaving (like it will straighten some coming out of the plane, and it may stay straight if it's thick enough and have waviness in it showing evidence it was flattened when it hit the cap iron.

Your surface with the cap iron set should be identical to without. Bright and clean.

 

[Corneel]

Good call. A gap under the capiron also lures the shavings inside. So when you find shavings under the capiron, that's a sure sign that the fit is not very good. Cutting immediately stops when that happens. Setting the capiron closer to the edge increases the likelihood of this to happen. So the fit must be better then when you only leave the capiron "far" away from the edge.

 

[matt_southward]

I can recommend diamond stones for this kind of grinding/tuning. About the right level of grit, and reliably flat. BugBear

This was my experience exactly. I thought I'd tuned the cap iron before - on oilstones - but after buying some diamonds stones a few weeks ago (and after wading through this thread) I went back to it on the diamonds and they did seem to give me the results I wanted more easily. I'm certainly happy with it now. I tried it on some fairly coarse mahogany earlier, and the surface sheen was lovely.

 

[D_W]

This has become a substantial thread, and generally the chat has been around Bailey-style planes. For those of us who will find time to break off from making in order to tune a plane or two can I mention woodies? Discussions have mentioned tight mouths but with the typical old woodie that is not an option (unless you do an insert). I am a fan of jacks - I personally find smoothers too short, too tall and the ergonomics don't work for me. But the jack can be tuned to be a really good smoother for panels etc - OK, not for localised due to bed length, but for larger areas. It's all there to play with in a simple package: hefty laminated irons, hefty caps and otherwise an appealing simplicity with some variables deleted (no frog, no mouth adjustment). I almost always find a little time spent tuning a woodie is rewarded, and it might inform more widely on the subject of plane tuning. The same point would apply to infills but generally speaking I can grab a woodie jack for a tenner or so, a decent infill adds a nought (or so). And I'm not saying a tight mouth doesn't make a difference - just that I am not personally convinced. This pic is not a tricky wood, I'll try and get some that are!

I am a huge fan of woodies!! but I don't generally use them to smooth. For everything else, though, for sure.

The lighting in this photo isn't doing anyone any favors, but I use these four planes almost exclusively. Only the continental smoother when sizing something short like moulding planes blanks in the background, it sort of does try plane level work (shavings three or four times as thick as those coming out of the smoother).

 

[condeesteso]

I can recommend diamond stones for this kind of grinding/tuning. About the right level of grit, and reliably flat. BugBear

This was my experience exactly. I thought I'd tuned the cap iron before - on oilstones - but after buying some diamonds stones a few weeks ago (and after wading through this thread) I went back to it on the diamonds and they did seem to give me the results I wanted more easily. I'm certainly happy with it now. I tried it on some fairly coarse mahogany earlier, and the surface sheen was lovely.

Matt, just a mention and I think it's been touched on earlier. If/when tuning this close the cap becomes as critical as the cutting edge of course, and the leading edge of cap has to be perfect straight (assuming iron back is dead flat where they will mate). I think there are these essentials:

1] get a small degree of clearance behind the leading edge on the underside - aim for a line of contact with 'nil' area. We know nil is impossible but that is the target. The clearance angle can be small but there needs to be one to be certain the leading edge is contacting totally, right across.

2] Raise the leading edge angle of the cap - consensus here seems 50 degrees, I have been doing roughly 60 (by eye) but thereabouts. Just a ribbon along the edge, noting the shavings are v thin so this surface strip can be.

3] Important bit - use a medium you know to be flat (stones are not flat for this purpose) and get 2 flat planes/surfaces meeting at the leading edge of the cap. Only this way can you be sure to have a truly straight line of contact. Make the 2 surfaces fine, finishing on about the finest flat medium you have. Check and remove any wire edge that may have formed. I run a final 10 second check. A flat surface held to the edge and check no light through (I use a sine bar!, be careful if using a straight edge, a flat surface object is better).

Good news - once done well, you will hardly need to touch it again for a long time. And any appearance of micro-dust in that contact line is a sign it needs more work.

Sorry if this is obvious or covered in sections elsewhere, but I think this is the complete prep process.

edit: re diamond stones BB, good ones flat but many not I find. Just best to check.

 

[AndyT]

Another tack on the question of getting no gap between the front edge of the cap iron and the back of the blade...
I've seen this suggested in an old book, though I can't find which one at the moment. The suggestion was to fit the cap iron, then run a bit of hard steel such as the tip of a screwdriver across its edge, deforming the relatively soft steel so that it makes perfect contact.
This would perhaps be most useful to those who don't have perfectly flat backs to their cutting irons.

Edit: I'm not recommending or condemning this - I've never done it - but as we seem to be writing a collection of all that we know about cap irons, I thought I'd add another little pebble to the tottering cairn.

 

[J_Cramer]

Another tack on the question of getting no gap between the front edge of the cap iron and the back of the blade...
I've seen this suggested in an old book, though I can't find which one at the moment. The suggestion was to fit the cap iron, then run a bit of hard steel such as the tip of a screwdriver across its edge, deforming the relatively soft steel so that it makes perfect contact.
This would perhaps be most useful to those who don't have perfectly flat backs to their cutting irons.

It's in 'Modern Practical Joinery' by George Ellis, p. 50 in my reprint of the 1908 edition.
Not my favourite method for mating the cap iron to the blade, though.

Cheers
Jürgen

 

[bugbear]

edit: re diamond stones BB, good ones flat but many not I find. Just best to check.

My two DMT stones are flat; I just bought one of the on-offer Trend stones;

trend-diamond-stone-t93971.html?hilit=trend

Following your advice, I will check it (carefully - don't want to abrade a known good straight edge!)

EDIT; thanks for the tip - the Trend is significantly convex (on the coarse side); I Haven't
measured the convexity, since measuring convexity is fiddly.

BugBear

 

[swagman]

No complaints with this combo grit. http://www.fallkniven.com/en/shop/detai ... ners/dc521

 

[DennisCA]

About getting the cap irons flat to the blade, I've been told that the common method of using a flat surface and making the cap iron itself a truly flat surface is incorrect. The reasoning is that once you tighten that screw the cap iron will bend slightly and you won't have a perfect contact surface anymore. The method I was told use layout fluid to see where the cap iron makes and doesn't make contact when tightened, then keep honing and tuning very, very finely until the contact surfaces mate perfectly.