When to rewire house?

[gasmansteve]

Hi folks
My daughter and hubby have moved into their `new` house today and the estate agent in the sales blurb suggested it might need rewiring . It was built in 1969 and does have oldish looking sockets. An electrician friend of mine (thats a train electrician, he repairs trains) suggested looking at the wiring and checking the general condition as possibly the lighting circuit may not have an earth. My own house is a similar age and but for changing the sockets the wiring is fine. I would ask an electrician to check but after problems another friend of mine had with a spark who said all sorts needed doing costing a packet none of which needed doing in the end.Is there anything specific apart from the lighting earth to look for? I want to save them some expense if poss but if it needs doing fair enough I wondered what can actually wear out?
Cheers
Steve
Ps I understand the previous occupant was an old electrician

 

[oddsocks]

Steve, i'm not an electrician, but in a recent conversation with a friend who is one, he said the recommended rewire at 20 (or 25 years -can't remember) was because that was the guaranteed life of the PVC coating for the twin and earth cable. Bit like a 'use by' date!
so a 1969 house is 39 years old and worth at least checking. Again from memory a safety test was about £80 (but often ends up in condemnation due reg changes since 1969) - just think of the number of appliances, ceiling lights. power showers, elect showers etc that didn't really exist in 1969

Dave

 

[Karl]

Why not get a few sparkies round, and see if there is a common opinion on what needs doing.

My in-laws bought their current house 15 years ago. They were told when they bought it that it needed re-wiring. They decided to just change the sockets......

Earlier this year they had the whole house re-wired. It was only then that we found out that my MIL had been chaning the fuse wire on the ring fuses weekly, as they kept on blowing. This had been going on for "a few years".

The sparkie said wiring (which was the old rubber coated wire, rather than the PVC you get now) was in a terrible state, and there were breaks all over the place.

Cheers

Karl

 

[OLD]

A modern installation is properly earthed and protected with rcd and 'fused' with mcb,s extra protection by materials and positioning is provided in wet areas this all adds up to a higher level of safety for the user.

 

[wizer]

My house was built in the 30's and was probably rewired in the late 70's. When we moved in we pulled the place apart doing all sorts of renovation work while it was empty. I wished we'd had it re-wired. The amount of time and money I have spent fixing 'bodges' would have justified a full re-wire.

 

[RogerS]

Any electrician that you invite round will tell you that it doesn't meet current regulations and so will need rewiring.

The key questions really for you are (a) is it dangerous (from an electrical shock perspective) and (b) is there a fire risk due to a high resistance joint somewhere, cables being overloaded etc.

From a pragmatic point of view, before that bloody Part P rubbish came along, I would have replaced the consumer unit myself with a new one to 17th edition spec. That would mean that (a) I was protected from electrical shock as far as was reasonably practical and (b) if the cabling was dodgy then I'd get a lot of nuisance tripping of the RCD...which in a way answers your original post..ie rewire needed.

Unfortunately I doubt if you will find an electrician willing to just replace the CU as IIRC that is classed as a major change which then necessitates him carrying out a full inspect etc etc in order to give you a certificate. But if you're not moving for a while then that's probably not an issue.

Alternatively you could ask for a full inspection (which is probably a days work). That will empirically measure the insulation resistance etc of your cables etc.

As far as the earth cable and the lighting circuits are concerned, it is only of importance if you have any metal lights that require earthing. If you don't have any metal lights then don't worry about the earth missing.

Rewiring is a huge upheaval unless you are happy to have the cables fixed on the surface of the walls and ceilings. This usually does not guarantee a harmonious marital arrangement.

BTW 17th edition of the regs raises more questions than answers

 

[gatesmr2]

Ok now you got me thinking :shock:

So if the pvc cover is only meant to last 25 years on wires where does that leave you on insurance for your home.
I assume you have to keep your house in a good state of repair etc etc and if 25 years is the limit what happens if you do have a fire caused by old electrics, does the insurance company have a get out clause :?

My house which i've been in for 30 years seems ok no tripping at the fuse box but i'm guessing the wiring is getting on for 40 plus years old so just thought i'd see if anyone knew or has experienced this could be problem.

 

[Jake]

PVC is fine - they haven't had any age related failure problems AFAIK.

If the cable is rubber insulated (or worse,aluminium cored) definitely re-wire.

Otherwise, try to find a sensible electrician who isn't of the 'must rewire everything' type.

They always say 'needs a rewire' on surveys - it's a back-covering standard clause.

 

[Woody Alan]

It depends on how you view the situation.
My house built in 1964 doesn't have earthed lighting. I have no need to touch the lights unless a bulb goes, so turning of the fuse makes it a safe operation. I fitted an mcb split board prior to part P nonesense. All my kktchen socket are on the trip apart from fridge and freezer. You have to balance a risk factor against scaremongering, I don't know what the statistics for injury due to no earth on lights are but it has to be small. The chances of a well fitted light fitting going "live" due to a fault is pretty slim.
I just add earths as the opportunity arises if the floor is up.
The other thing to bear in mind is if the fitting should go "live" and you happen to touch it as long as it is on a 25mA RCD you won't get electrocuted as the imbalance you create will throw the trip, just like the outdoor type protection.
As for the PVC degrading as long as it hasn't been subject to UV light or certain products that cause it to turn jelly like (some plasters) then it isn't going to be a problem. Bear in mind there are many industrial installations where single insulated (unlike your double) cable has laid in metal trunking with other cable for 50years and shows no sign of degrading.
Upgrading the consumer unit to full protection, is a very good idea but if a sparky does it he probably under part P has to bring all the earthing up to spec, as part of his sign off. but I don't see the need for replacing all the wiring.
Alan

 

[Anonymous]

I have been a qualified electrcian and electronics technician for around 25 years (before I took my degree and became an electrical design engineer), and I would recommend rewiring the house.

I have seen many properties of this age with significant degredation of the insulation on cables. Materials have a finite life.

 

[Tusses]

do you have to be 'certified' or just 'competent' to do your own wiring - ie not for anyone else.

Last time I checked - you could do your own gas work too :shock: If you were 'compepent' - no need for gorgi - but that was before the new rules came in and things needed to be signed off.

I have rewired several houses in the past, and moved the odd cooker gas point too. Now it seems like a lot of effort to fugure out what you can and cant do.

The short answer is always 'you cant do any of it' but I am sure you can change sockets as long as they are not in the Kitchen Bathroom or and outside work.

I really must read up on it, as our house needs rewiring and I cant see me paying for someone else to do it :evil:

 

[Jake]

I have been a qualified electrcian and electronics technician for around 25 years (before I took my degree and became an electrical design engineer), and I would recommend rewiring the house.

I have seen many properties of this age with significant degredation of the insulation on cables. Materials have a finite life.

So you think that every house which dates back further than the mid-eighties (which hasn't yet been rewired) needs a full rewire?

You should have been a surveyor!

(edit, sorry,I only saw the 25 years comment, not the '69 date. Still, if it's PVC, I'd get it tested rather than assume the wiring needs replacement. The accessories probably need replacing, and it's likely that they'll want more sockets anyway)

 

[RogerS]

do you have to be 'certified' or just 'competent' to do your own wiring - ie not for anyone else.

Last time I checked - you could do your own gas work too :shock: If you were 'compepent' - no need for gorgi - but that was before the new rules came in and things needed to be signed off.

I have rewired several houses in the past, and moved the odd cooker gas point too. Now it seems like a lot of effort to fugure out what you can and cant do.

The short answer is always 'you cant do any of it' but I am sure you can change sockets as long as they are not in the Kitchen Bathroom or and outside work.

I really must read up on it, as our house needs rewiring and I cant see me paying for someone else to do it :evil:

Short answer to a very long question.....if you are intending to rewire yourself then you can do it yourself but it is notifiable under Part P...notifiable to either Building Control (who will make a charge) or you get in a sparkie and pay them to do it. Highly unlikely you'll find a sparky who will come in and test/inspect your own work without having seen the actual cable runs going in.

 

[skipdiver]

You can't seem to find two electricians who agree on the current regs.Most sparky's i know say it is a total waste of space but they are obliged to do unecessary work when doing jobs if they discover something that is now deemed not safe.When i renovated my last house,i asked a sparky at work about exponential bonding in the bathroom and his answer was "dont bother.i haven't in my house"He went on to say that he had yet to see a convincing argument that all this bonding was needed and that it would actually do any good anyway.

When you have a sparky of many years,who runs his own business telling you this,then what chance has a layman like me got.I moved into my house last month and i know there are issues with the electrics.Some of the upstairs ones dont work at all and i am having to get my new workshop wired at some point.If i call a sparky in to quote for the work,will i be told that i have to have a load of extra work done at huge expense?

Tusses.I remember getting into a discussion on another site about what you are and are not allowed to do yourself regarding wiring.Several sparks gave such conflicting advice that the discussion descended ino argument and namecalling.It got fairly nasty at the end and no-one seemed to be any the wiser.

 

[dennis]

Steve

One thing to check is if the cables are run through plastic conduits as then it is just a case of pulling the old wiring out and pulling the new ones through behind them without all the disruption of cutting chases and replastering,unless you are adding or moving sockets etc.

Dennis

 

[Woody Alan]

It is quite simple he says setting of an argument. You are allowed to do all of your own wiring as long as you consider yourself competent.

The real question is what wiring is notifiable for building regs part P. The stuff that is notifiable can be signed of by a part P sparky or the council if you put in a request prior to work.
Notifiable includes kitchen/bathroom/outside/change fuseboard/install new ring main. What isn't, is fixing a fault or adding the odd socket (exc bathroom etc).
This is it in essence without going into fine detail. B&Q have some big boards up in their electrical dept dispelling some myths.

Alan

 

[skipdiver]

I know i can change sockets and repair stuff.My wiring seems quite good on the face of it.Definitely been rewired in recent years but by whom,and to what standard?Will a new sparky come in,start quoting part P and wanting to rip out all my wiring.It seems to be a minefield and i'm sure some sparks are using it to generate work

 

[dennis]

Steve

I agree that some sparks will use it to generate work but this happens in all walks of life, it is a case of finding someone trustworthy and not out to rip you off.

Dennis

 

[Woody Alan]

i'm sure some sparks are using it to generate work

Maybe, but a friend of mine who is part P sparky, is sick of going round to price a simple job and then faced with "having" to tell the customer his earth will have to be upgraded as part of the job and so adding cost to the job. The result is a customer like yourself perhaps, doubts the sparky's integrity and or decides they don't need the original job done after all, so wasting his time.

Alan

 

[dennis]

Alan

It all really boils down to honesty and trust,if the sparks is honest about the work that is needed and the customer does not believe him and gets someone elses opinion surely if they are honest the customer will be told the same.

Dennis