What the hell is wrong with MDF ?

[gidon]

Interesting discussion ...

It's lousy to work with hand tools.

Really? I took my new LA jack to it on Sunday without any problems :lol: :lol: (Before you confiscate the said tool, in my defence I was desperate!)

But Ray, I use MDF in the workshop, for jigs and cupboards etc. It's very handy: easy to machine, flat and CHEAP. But I tend to steer clear for any furniture I'm making. Also even with cut down sheets it's a pain to use when you have limited room.

Interested to hear more about this "zero F" stuff? Is this what B&Q sell - since that's where I get my MDF from? If not do any of the sheds sell it? I've found myself feeling very tired coming back in from the shed recently (even if I'm only there for a short time) - and I have been using a lot of MDF - with a face mask on whilst cutting ...

My sister has been choosing a kitchen the last few months. She is finding the standard offering (in the price range they are looking at) is solid wood for frames of doors and veneered MDF for panel door. Not sure about carcass construction - I guess in even the very pricey kitchens this is still made from sheet materials?

Really lovely kitchen by the way Ray.

Cheers

Gidon

 

[tim]

Alf

Oh, and it doesn't keep well in the moist Cornish climate.

How much would a solid slate kitchen cost I wonder?

Although I'm not sure how much the Formaldehyde emissions would matter with all that Radon around. :lol:

I agree 100% with Aragorn - although maybe i'm lucky that it doesn't make me feel sick. My life improved no end when I hung an air filter in the workshop and keep it running all the time the MDF is being worked.

Cheers

Tim

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi all

This link has been posted previously, but I think it is worthwhile posting it again. It is a guide to mdf by KeithS: -

http://www.askthetrades.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=DiyC;action=display;num=1083395215

Cheers
Neil

 

[Gill]

MDF is ideal for the scrollsaw work that I do, especially since cheap, thin boards of decent grade ply are so hard to find. Come to that, any decent quality timber's hard to come by round here.

It's just so practical, adaptable and predictable. There are no problems with stability and once it's painted up it looks as good as your artistic skills will allow.

I know this is a woodworking forum but it would be nice to find a little acceptance for those of us who use woodworking techniques but don't have recourse to wood. I wonder how many budding woodworkers are put off by forums such as this simply because they don't work in the approved medium. It must be so discouraging to browse a forum and come the conclusion that your proud creation will probably be sneered upon because it doesn't conform to the tradional techniques. I suspect that many younger people will develop a love of woodwork through their experience of handling man-made boards. If 'proper' woodworkers don't give such folk encouragement and recognise the validity of their work, the next generation of woodworkers might be killed off altogether.

I found it terrifically heartening to see so many of you praise the wonderful MDF creation that was on the earlier pages. It shows that MDF does have a place in our workshops and it's about time that products made out of it were given the respect they deserved.

Now, it's time to decorate the Christmas tree with my scrollsaw-cut MDF ornaments...

Gill

 

[woodshavings]

Now, it's time to decorate the Christmas tree with my scrollsaw-cut MDF ornaments...

Gill

Hi Gill - it would be good if you could post some pics of your tree ornaments - I'm looking for some inspiration !!

Cheers John

 

[dedee]

Horses for courses.

If it's good enough to be featured in FWW (no 170, June 2004, ) then it's good enough for me.

Andy

 

[tim]

Andy,

Love your avatar - is it something you made? If so is there any chance you could send me plans? You may just be able to get me out of a 'its how many days to christmas' baby godson shocker!! :shock: :lol:

Cheers

Tim

 

[Gill]

Hi John

I'd love to post some but there are two problems:

1. No camera
2. No photography skills

My decorations are mostly straight lifts from Christmas cards that I've been sent, although a few come from supermarket magazines and kiddies comics . I've even made some from proper patterns by Patrick Spielman! There's inspiration all around us.

Yours :deer

Gill

 

[dedee]

Tim,
The plans came from a library book. I should have some photo copies at home. Drop me a PM with an address and I'll try and find them tonight.

Andy

 

[houtslager]

8) wow , a lot of serious points put in here on the humble material known colloqiualy as dustmaker here in our workshop.
For people in the business of trying to earn a LIVING in woodworking, imho have NO CHOICE. Also, one must try to think of the forests we in the WEST are responaable for denuding due to our rapacious of wanting our furniture and fittings for our homes to look good - ie meranti / teak / afromosia..etc are now on some endangered lists due to the deforestation.
The use of manufactured wood products reuses waste materials and some virgin material to make these sheet materials. IT DOES HELP to reduce the world's deforestation.
As a woodworker, I find the material PDG* and for most of the furniture I am asked to make by clients on a tight budget it is the ONLY material I can use. Ok, we are lucky in our workshop to have a WALL SAW so cutting sheet material is no problem well that is until I needed to use 38mm board - man is that HEAVY !
So to round up like others have said - its horses for courses :?
It even looks pdg* when coated in a Clear varnish :twisted:

all the best from HS in a sunny & warm Florida :twisted:

ps pdg* = pretty damn good

 

[Chris Knight]

HS,

You had better change your profile if you are now in Florida, it still says Amsterdam.

Anyway, enough of the hints. What are you doing, for whom, where and why etc etc?

Are you now an American, a green card holder or what. Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[Frank D.]

Hi everyone,
A very interesting discussion here! I sworw off MDF for two reasons: the toxic dust (it is much more toxic than wood dust--I try not to use toxic finishes so why would I use toxic materials?) and the waste management problem it poses: formaldehyde is very bad for the environment, no comparison with wood. It might save some trees but trees are a renewable resource when managed properly, and MDF leads to the consumption of much more chemicals (the synthetic resins and glues).
This said, those who like or need to use it, more power to them!
FWIW,
Frank

 

[Midnight]

Woah... tons of issues to address... still, it's good to see something like this can be addressed without pyrotechnics...

<guessin I'll need to roll the sleeves up for this post.....

Now then...

Tim Wrote

Can't help but think that the flat pack kitchen units you refer to are chipboard and not MDF.

Exactly right Tim. I recognize it might not have been the best example to use, but at that time of night it was the best example of a stressed skin I could think of. From the descriptions I've read of both chipboard and MDF, they behave very similarly when used as structural material, in that they both need as much help as they can get...

re market dynamics....

doing this as a pass-time, I fully recognize that the absence of pressure to make a living from my craft enables me to take a seemingly "high brow" attitude; I hope that's not the impression that my posts put over... I fully recognize that "in the real world" things are a whole lot more complex, and compromises need to be made; it's not the first time I've had to patch an ROV together with offcuts from the wire-room floor...
But that said, it's not the first time that I've been forced to use 3rd rate material in spite of raising valid objections to it. Those materials force compromises that end up making the job take longer, pushing the costs beyond the savings they made by using the crap materials in the first place...

When it comes to finishing, I'll fess up to being bone idol... having tried the varnish route, and had it come back to haunt me later, these days I stick to easy to use, easy to clean, easy to repair finishes; sand in some oil, wipe on some wax, give it some elbow grease and call it done.... So far I've been fortunate in that every time I've done that, it's worked out fine... For me, the important part is that the finish lets the character in the wood speak for itself; there's plenty I can do to spoil it... very little that will improve it... I know when to leave well alone.....

Gill wrote...

I wonder how many budding woodworkers are put off by forums such as this simply because they don't work in the approved medium. It must be so discouraging to browse a forum and come the conclusion that your proud creation will probably be sneered upon because it doesn't conform to the tradional techniques. I suspect that many younger people will develop a love of woodwork through their experience of handling man-made boards. If 'proper' woodworkers don't give such folk encouragement and recognise the validity of their work, the next generation of woodworkers might be killed off altogether.

I get the feeling that I (among others here) am getting a lecture. Gill... I can see your point, strange though it may seem, however I prefer to think (correct me if I'm wrong) that your point doesn't carry much weight.. The fact that I'm here, building the projects I choose, using materials I prefer to use is proof of that...
My very first project needed 10 sheets of the cheapest, nastiest 18mm ply that my meagre budget could afford; the spec was to build 2 massive and one tiny corner units, a book case, and almost 100 linear feet of shelving; dust collectors, for the placement of. To assist/encourage me to get off my backside and build it I was given a router for my b/day. I'd no previous experience of building anything like it, no books, no assistance, no other tools, no workshop to build the stuff in, no clue that online forums existed, and my only guide re how to get it done was years of watching Norm.... Somehow, I managed to get the lot done using just simple joints, rebates, dado's and mitred butt joints. The edges were dressed up using off the shelf lengths of hardwood, everything was sanded with a tiny detail sander (took forever and killed my first shop vac) and left me thoroughly disappointed with the outcome (although SWMBO still sings its praises). I knew I could do better, so I bought a pair of elm boards; both of them rough cut, waney edged and roughly milled to thickness at the saw mill. Just using the table saw, I managed to make 5 small raised panel doors; I didn't know it at the time, but I'd used bridle joints to make the door frames, and making them was my introduction to violent kickback. The last piece was just about big enough to make a drawer front, and it was the grain in that piece that sold me on the idea that this was what I wanted to do... and this was what I wanted to work with; locally grown, locally managed, locally milled hardwoods...
4 years on I've yet to regret that decision.
Part-way through that first project I stumbled onto the FWW web site; my education in how things should be done began there... helped no end through the Knots forum... since then, I found the UKW forum, furthering my education in the process...
I'd say that contrary to being put off, seeing examples of how things can be done has served to fuel my determination to improve, my tools, techniques and knowledge...

 

[tim]

Mike,

I think we started pretty much the same way. I decided that it couldn't be that hard to make a kitchen when we moved into our house - met a guy who worked for a timber yard at a party.... Next thing I know I've got 24 sheets of maple veneered MDF and about 1000 feet of maple in the drive, one crappy circular saw, two B&D workmates and a dreadful 1/4 in router (I didn't know about shop vacs then). Built it - looks good five years later - in fact I stll show it to potential customers as an example of my work but at the same time realised I'd also love to work more with 'real' wood where poss.

Its taken me 4 years to find locally grown and managed hardwoods but I've now got a great source but at the same time recognise that on some jobs I have to tailor the materials to suit budgets - hence the defence of MDF... but...

I don't know if you saw the little maple and walnut table I put up a couple of weeks ago - well it was for a wedding present. My wife wondered what I would want to charge for it if i was going to sell it - I told her and she went pale. Anyway, it got delivered tonight and the couple have asked for another one to make a pair and without any prompting offered a price about 20% up on what I would have wanted if it was a paying job . So its swings and roundabouts but still a great big playground.

I think as long as you are not trying to pass stuff off as something else and you and the customer are happy then you have chosen the right materials and approach to the job.

Cheers

T

 

[johnelliott]

I think as long as you are not trying to pass stuff off as something else and you and the customer are happy then you have chosen the right materials and approach to the job.

Can't say fairer than that
John

 

[Anonymous]

I think as long as you are not trying to pass stuff off as something else and you and the customer are happy then you have chosen the right materials and approach to the job.

Can't say fairer than that
John

Seconded!!!

 

[Newbie_Neil]

I think as long as you are not trying to pass stuff off as something else and you and the customer are happy then you have chosen the right materials and approach to the job.

Can't say fairer than that
John

Seconded!!!

Thirded. :wink:

Cheers
Neil

 

[houtslager]

[/quote] think as long as you are not trying to pass stuff off as something else and you and the customer are happy then you have chosen the right materials and approach to the job

well said that man!

 

[Midnight]

Tim Wrote...

I think as long as you are not trying to pass stuff off as something else and you and the customer are happy then you have chosen the right materials and approach to the job.

Sorted.!!!

:wink:

 

[Shady]

Just for info, folks, ignoring the subjective aspects:

a) The Carcinogenic risk from the mdf dust: this equates to that from softwood - you are at more risk of cancer from any hardwood dust you produce than from MDF.

b) The Urea Formaldehyde gas given off. With current MDF on sale, "MDF contains a very low level of formaldehyde (a naturally occurring chemical present in most timber and timber products). The amount emitted from the board is tiny and not harmful. It is well within the World Health Organisation guideline for the amount of formaldehyde from all sources that may be present in ambient air (inside homes or outside) of 0.1mg/cu m (equivalent to 0.08 parts per million) and begins to reduce as soon as the board has been produced. It is well controlled by companies' compliance with the new European fibreboard standard (EN 622-1)."

"The amount of any formaldehyde emitted from MDF is tiny. It is certainly well below the World Health Organisation’s guideline figure for the amount of formaldehyde that may be emitted from all product sources and that may be present in ambient air—inside homes or outside—of 0.1 mg/cubic metre (equivalent to 0.08 parts per million). The UK’s Building Research Establishment has tested the air in typical British homes and found it to contain about one-quarter of the above level from all sources. The estimated amount contributed by MDF sources is reckoned to be less than one-fifth of the WHO guideline maximum."

"In respect of DIY exposure, the Medical Research Council’s Institute for Environment and Health is on record as saying “Looking at the domestic situation, available evidence suggests that DIY exposure to wood dust (through cutting, sawing, sanding, etc) is unlikely to pose any measurable health risk”, and added that “While MDF (because of its composition) is likely to produce more fine dust than solid wood for the same operations, it is – as with wood – considered unlikely to pose any significant hazard”.

What all this suggests is that, just like any other wood based product, you don't want to go snifing up the dust like some sort of mad cocaine junky - and of course, MDF produces a lot of very fine dust, so all the usual precautions are required. That said, the formaldehyde issue (setting aside the issues involved in manufacture) is probably a red herring. There are many other sources, and even taking them all into account, unless you turn your home into a hermetically sealed 'MDF based nuclear fall out shelter', we are, by and large, still below the WHO recommended limits. Put it this way: Alf is at far greater risk from all that radon that the granite is chucking out down her way than from any MDF dust.

I'm not an apologist or spokesman, and recognise that the exposure should be minimised wherever possible - but hard wood dust is a greater health hazard - so if you're not gonna work with MDF for health, as opposed to aesthetic, reasons, please let me know when I can come and take all your waste hardwood stocks off you... :wink: