Watkins AGS 10 - gap between worm & racked quadrant for rise

[Peterochse]

I am hoping to buy a Wadkins AGS 10. It appears to be in very good condition. The only problem is that I can see a gap between the worm and the racked quadrant that controls the rise and fall. The adjustment for the blade angle is tight but works. The blade was stuck in one position and then dropped when pushed firmly. There is a lot of accumulated dirt & sawdust in the machine but the saw ran quietly and made very short work of a piece of scrap wood.

I have been accumulating information from the many posts on this forum but have not found a post that would fit this problem. Does anyone have any ideas as to what could be the cause and how to fix it?

The general condition of the saw is in such good condition for a machine of this vintage that I would be extremely surprised that something major is wrong and the weight of all the cast iron would prevent it from moving easily. Ideally I would like some insight before I buy. Also spare parts are not readily available in South Africa.

Thanks in advance
Peter

 

[RobinBHM]

It rayher sounds like that the machine is not tilting due build up of dirt rather than wear.

Its quite a common machine so maybe somebody can advise what gap yheir machine has.

Do you know which model?

 

[Peterochse]

Unfortunately not. Here is the picture from the advert.

The rust on the table is superficial and should clean off fairly easily.

I regret not taking a photo of the problem but did not think of posting for help on a forum when I was checking it out.

Thanks
Peter

 

[RobinBHM]

I guess thats one of the older versions

http://www.advancedmachinery.co.uk/mach ... wbenches-6

Its possible the shaft is attached to the body with bolts and the play can be adjusted. It may be worth downloading the manual in case it shows that to be the case. Im sure there must be ags owners on here that will be able to clarify.

 

[mr.alan.]

Hi- I have the exact same model- but like whats all ready been said by RobinBHM I would download the manual - I would then give it a good clean and - if that does not cure it- maybe start a dismantle - I don't think there is much to them and the instruction manual is quite informative.

 

[SammyQ]

I had the exact same problem and it came down to two causes.

One, the 'worm' that rotates on the end of the wheel shaft has a ball race immediately underneath - it can cake up with dirt and need cleaned and re-lubricated. I advise 'dry' spray lube. The mechanism is fairly straightforward to pull out of the casing, leaving everything else in place. Look at the screw holding it in place at the scale on the front of the saw.

The second is more subtle. Look down through the blade opening into the saw. You should see a 'retaining plate' or gib holding the secondary casting in line as it pivots on the main casting. This plate bears on the moving casting and it can quite often stick, so that the blade does not descend, or only descends after some seconds, and with an abrupt crash. It has three adjusting screws on my model, but I found the gib fell out of position (jamming the rise and fall)no matter where I adjusted them to and it needed small earth magnets behind it to retain it and facilitate movement.

I did a wee picture essay on this for PeterG some time back, somewhere on this forum and a quick forum search for "Wadkin elevating sticking" threw up some good photos from Peter and Roadman.

Sam

Sam

 

[Peterochse]

Thanks Sam. Dirt being the cause is highly likely. I think it may have cut a lot of MDF for its previous owner and is very dirty. However under the dirt it appears to be in good condition. I am comparing it to a much older one that I was keen to get and restore. Based on pictures on the internet it predates 1962. This one is certainly newer and will need a good clean, a new blade & the motor swapped to a single phase model. Then I should have a cabinet saw that should outlast me.

Cheers Peter

 

[MusicMan]

I have one too, and echo the dirt idea. Mine moves smoothly but with some backlash, and I don't think it is possible to adjust this out on this model unless it is end float in the supporting bearing. However, it always descends (if a bit jerkily) when I wind it down, and as you say, the weight of the motor and casting keeps it perfectly stable when sawing.

Lovely machine. I kept mine three phase and bought a 415V invertor, which runs it beautifully.

Keith

 

[SammyQ]

Evenin'. Found the pictures:
Was yours as scummy as this? Sympathy vote!

My raising mechanism worm drive originally looked like this:

But gardening twine and metal polish soon restored it:

Here's the main casting/moving arbour casting/magnets tip:

HTH!!

Sam

 

[Peterochse]

Thanks for the help and pictures. I don't think my cleaning job will be as hectic. The dust is very fine, which made me think of MDF or a fine particle board. Certainly not sawdust from normal hardwood. I will post pictures once it is all cleaned up and ready for work.

Thanks again
Peter

 

[Peterochse]

I collected my saw today and I am not sure if this is the same problem that you guys had. I have cleaned it a bit but I am not sure if that is the cause. Sorry about the sequence.

 

[Peterochse]

I forgot to mention that there is lateral play but I haven't tried to adjust that yet.

Thanks
Peter

 

[MusicMan]

If the bottom one is the rise/fall that you are worried about then yes, that is wrong. The worm should engage the gear right up to and just past the bottom of the gear. So either the gear has got pushed back into its hole, or it has fractured. Hopefully it is the former, and judging from SammyQ's pics that's what it is. Follow his instructions above!

Otherwise it looks in great shape!

 

[SammyQ]

Pictures three and four: problem is as clear as crystal. The casting containing the vertical adjustment 'worm' is two full inches , five centimetres back from where it should be. That pointed indicator should be not-quite-scraping the scale it refers to. From memory (at work now) there is a tapped hole in the body of the casting and a way of securing it in position. Will have to check later and post more thoroughly.

EDIT: Look at my pictures above. Do you see a hole in the side of the casting bearing the worm? From memory, I think there is a Whitworth-tapped thread in there and the is a bolt holding this small round casting in place on the main casting via this hole? Daltons used to have a PDF of an old AGS manual on their site and there is a parts diagram right at the back which will help you to 'get' this.

Sam

 

[MusicMan]

SammyQ has hit the nail on the head.

Re manuals/parts lists, there are actually two versions. Mine is the older style (in which the riving knife does not tilt with the tilting arbor). Not sure which yours is, but in any case, the rise and fall gear mechanism is the same on each.

The files can be found here: http://www.wadkin.com/wadkin-library/view/167

You want the Wadkin AGS 250 (10") Sawbench Manual and Parts List, or else ditto - older style.

Welcome to the club! A modest amount of work and you will have a brilliant saw.

Keith

 

[memzey]

I agree that SammyQ has hit the nail on the head with regards to the OP's issue but I'd just like to clarify one minor point: the splitter on the older variants DOES cant with the saw but DOES NOT rise and fall synchronously. This can be effected manually however by loosening the nut holding it place and sliding the splitter up or down to suit before re-tightening. I can't make out which variant this one is, it could be either. I'd need to get a look at the arbour arrangement without the saw blade in place to be 100% sure.

 

[Peterochse]

Thank you. That is what I thought. I managed to get the mechanism out but it needs some encouragement to get in properly. I plan to cut a piece of pipe & put a notch in it so that I can tap with a hammer. The grub screw has a slot. Which makes it very awkward to tighten or loosen.

There sure is a variety of bolts and fittings. Thank goodness I hung onto a set of imperial scanners. I just wish I had my dad's socket set. Unfortunately I thought I would never need that.

I am going to make riving knife as that had been dispensed with over the years.

Thanks again
Peter

 

[SammyQ]

Peter, look up Mr Fish who posts here. He has posted photos and dimensions for riving knives and other hardware pertaining to this saw. I was able to scale up one of his photos/scans to make a pattern for cutting mine out of 2.5mm steel.

Sam

 

[Peterochse]

Thank you for all the help. I am very pleased with my new old saw. I made a riving knife out of the old blade it came with. Because of the shape and size I had to modify the template a bit.

I got 2 new Freud blades for it. A ripping and a cross cut blade. Both are thin kerf. The cross cut blade is loose on the arbor. I am going to contact the supplier but has anybody had the same challenge. At first I thought it was the coating that came off but after cleaning it I still had the problem

Peter

 

[Peterochse]

I have found the cause of the blade slipping. The reducing ring (don't know if I am calling it by the correct term) was ever so slightly thicker than the blade. Fortunately I had another from the old blade. My saw cuts like a dream.

Now I can get back to woodwork rather than tool set up.

Thanks for all the help in getting my saw set up.

Peter