Colin C
Established Member
Alf":1thjilmd said:
I must be lucky then as my fine ceramic stone has a small dish but the medium is on fare off flat
I got mine from Tilgear and had the chance to check the medium one.
Waterstones or diamond stones?
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I must be lucky then as my fine ceramic stone has a small dish but the medium is on fare off flat
I got mine from Tilgear and had the chance to check the medium one.
woodbloke
Established Member
I went down the trendy Japanese route some years ago, including waterstones and came away very unimpressed. Waterstones cut quickly but are hugely messy (Mr C recommends a sink with running water to clean them) and will go concave at the drop of hat. I now use the three grades of DMT stones. It is true that the extra fine grade isn't as good as the finest of the waterstones but this is very easily remedied by using a leather strop dressed with Vaseline and very, very fine jewellers rouge (the last polishing compound a silversmith will use on the wheel) A few stokes along the strop will give requisite edge and the Mr C ruler trick ensures that only the first couple of mm of the back is polished on the stone. I use domestic heating oil on the stone (water isn't recommended as it can degrade the metal plate) - Rob
gidon
Established Member
The main advantage of waterstones over diamond stones is the cost. Decent diamond stones are expensive. Waterstones also go up to polishing grades - with diamond stones you'll have to switch to something else for that if you want that ultimate edge. Cheapest option is a leather strop and some polishing compound. Or diamond paste on some MDF or maple. Or have a look at my video Paul pointed you too for the method I use. But I've tried most methods and for me waterstones are just too messy - if you have a sink in your workshop that would make a lot of difference - I don't. I sharpen a lot more often since giving up on waterstones.
The advantages of diamond stones (good ones) is they are flat and stay flat (compares well with your scary sharp method). Plus an extra course stone can be used for grinding out small nicks too.
Cheers
Gidon
The advantages of diamond stones (good ones) is they are flat and stay flat (compares well with your scary sharp method). Plus an extra course stone can be used for grinding out small nicks too.
Cheers
Gidon
ByronBlack
Established Member
I'm a little surprised by the many calls for a sink to use the 'hugely messy' waterstones. I've personally not had any problems with the mess. I small water-pond to store the low grit keeps water in one place, and a small atomiser/plant spray deals with wetting the polishing stone.
I keep my stones on a waterproof board and I keep some kitchen towel to one side and just mop the water as I go, there really is very little mess, even creating a slurry with the nagura stone is easy to give a quick wipe with the kitchen towel and i've never felt the need to run them under a tap or submerse them in a sink.
Maybe i'm mis-using them but I don't find them anymore messy than using an oilstone or a lubrication on a diamond stone.
One other small point, I don't see my waterstones going concave that quickly, but when they do they are very quick to flatten, just a few swipes does it.
Its interesting though to see everyones preferences, and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter what you use as long as your technique and understanding is sound.
I keep my stones on a waterproof board and I keep some kitchen towel to one side and just mop the water as I go, there really is very little mess, even creating a slurry with the nagura stone is easy to give a quick wipe with the kitchen towel and i've never felt the need to run them under a tap or submerse them in a sink.
Maybe i'm mis-using them but I don't find them anymore messy than using an oilstone or a lubrication on a diamond stone.
One other small point, I don't see my waterstones going concave that quickly, but when they do they are very quick to flatten, just a few swipes does it.
Its interesting though to see everyones preferences, and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter what you use as long as your technique and understanding is sound.
woodbloke
Established Member
BB - suggest you have a go with some diamond stones, the ease of use and lack of mess will be evident very quickly....anyone near you that you that's got a set? Agree tho', we need to find a system that suits us individually but it's worth having a play with others methods - Rob
A
Anonymous
Guest
Have to agree with BB - I have used waterstones for years and there is very little mess. In fact, the only 'mess' is on the piece of wet 'n' dry I use to flatten them from time to time
ByronBlack
Established Member
Rob
I have used diamond stones before, quite a lot actually. As well as oilstones. I was on a bruce luckhurst course where I spent the best part of 4 solid days just learning how to sharpen on the various different stones, and I have always felt that waterstones are no more messy than the others. In fact, I feel oilstones are messier, water is much easier to control and clean up than an oil based product.
I have used diamond stones before, quite a lot actually. As well as oilstones. I was on a bruce luckhurst course where I spent the best part of 4 solid days just learning how to sharpen on the various different stones, and I have always felt that waterstones are no more messy than the others. In fact, I feel oilstones are messier, water is much easier to control and clean up than an oil based product.
JesseM
Established Member
I'll chime in here. I have gone through 2 DMTs. One of the Duo Coarse/Extra Coarse and another single sided coarse. They have both worn out. I'll admit to be being heavy handed as I used them mainly for flattening backs and grinding out edges. The duo is now used for flattening waterstones.Alf":19e9hwct said:
I think I would just use something like scary sharp now with low grits cause it seems no matter what you use its gonna eventually succomb to the abuse of flattening and grinding. Sandpaper is cheap to replace.
ByronBlack
Established Member
Depends on how much sharpening you do, a good waterstone/oilstone should last the best part of 10 years, not sure how much 10 years worth of sandpaper would cost.. (im sure someone will no doubt work it out
JesseM
Established Member
I'm not advocating Scary Sharp for everything, just the grinding and flattening. I personally like waterstones myself but flattening can be abusive to waterstones if theres much to do.ByronBlack":2uxi19mh said:
Depends on how much sharpening you do, a good waterstone/oilstone should last the best part of 10 years, not sure how much 10 years worth of sandpaper would cost.. (im sure someone will no doubt work it out
Paul Chapman
Established Member
JesseM":34ytmzzx said:
I'm always quite surprised when I hear that people have worn out DMT stones. I've had mine (coarse, fine and extra fine 8" stones) for several years. I use them for all my blade maintenance, including blade flattening and maintenance of primary and secondary bevels (I don't use my grinder as it's a high speed one and I don't seem to be able to use it with out burning the blades). They are still working as well as they ever did. Maybe what you use as a lubricant affects the wear rate? I use WD40 on mine. This afternoon I re-formed the primary bevel on a second-hand plane blade that was in poor condition. I used my coarse stone, which must be over 10 years old, and it did the job very quickly.
Cheers :wink:
Paul
Whoah, lots of info to digest. Seems that most people here prefer diamond stones whereas on an Australian forum I sometimes post on everyone's mad about waterstones. Maybe what's fashionable varies from place to place across the globe. :?
To my mind, when it comes to water and diamond stones, each type has an advantage that it's a pity can't be combined. The former always seem to offer fresh new grit as it wears while the latter never goes out of shape. I don't like the idea of having to constantly flatten - and check - waterstones but equally I'm not keen on the fact that diamond stones seem to wear out with heavy use. But that's just from what I've picked up through reading as I've never used either type.
If I'm going to use honing compound on a hard felt/leather wheel do I really need the finer grits that waterstones can offer. Diamonds may be coarser but can't the final polish come off the wheel?
As for combining a coarser diamond stone and a finer waterstone for the two stages, that'll mean I won't be able to save money by picking up one of those combo stones with a different grit on each side. And just on that point, how unearth do you properly store a 1000/8000 combination waterstone when the coarser grit is supposed to be kept in water and the finer grit out of it?
To my mind, when it comes to water and diamond stones, each type has an advantage that it's a pity can't be combined. The former always seem to offer fresh new grit as it wears while the latter never goes out of shape. I don't like the idea of having to constantly flatten - and check - waterstones but equally I'm not keen on the fact that diamond stones seem to wear out with heavy use. But that's just from what I've picked up through reading as I've never used either type.
If I'm going to use honing compound on a hard felt/leather wheel do I really need the finer grits that waterstones can offer. Diamonds may be coarser but can't the final polish come off the wheel?
As for combining a coarser diamond stone and a finer waterstone for the two stages, that'll mean I won't be able to save money by picking up one of those combo stones with a different grit on each side. And just on that point, how unearth do you properly store a 1000/8000 combination waterstone when the coarser grit is supposed to be kept in water and the finer grit out of it?
Paul Kierstead
Established Member
woden":1o0q13bm said:
Oh, I am not so sure about that; I suspect a lot of waterstone users are just remaining silent. I am not so good at remaining silent.
The best advice I seen a while ago about sharpening is to pick a system and learn it. Once you have mastered that system, you'll have a good idea what you like or dislike about it and can consider changing; it'll be a *lot* easier the next time. There are differences in the systems, but they all work, and you can get good results from all of them. I'd say learn to use whatever you have, and if you have no investment, go with your gut. One thing about sharpening is definitely clear: Doing is far more instructional than worrying.
Frank D.
Established Member
I agree with Paul. That's why I now have diamond stones, water stones, oil stones, strops and compounds. :?
Actually I use them all in different situations and for different tools.
Just to address the watwer stone flattening issue, for me the key is handiness. That's why I use a big diamond plate to flatten my water stones: it's quick and relatively hassle-free. I also use the stones' relative softness to my advantage: depending on how many blades I have to sharpen (usually at least 4 or 5), I start out with the blades I want a straight edge on (block, jointer), then I go to my smoother, then to blades with more camber (fore, jack). Then I might reflatten once (it only takes 20 seconds or so per stone) to do chisels or other small blades.
You can polish an edge on the wheel, I've seen tons of info on this forum about that (Jake Darvall for example) but I don't know how it would work to flatten or polish backs (?).
Norton 8000 stones can be permanently soaked, but you can also just fill your container with the right amount of water so about half a stone soaks while the other (top) half doesn't.
Actually I use them all in different situations and for different tools.
Just to address the watwer stone flattening issue, for me the key is handiness. That's why I use a big diamond plate to flatten my water stones: it's quick and relatively hassle-free. I also use the stones' relative softness to my advantage: depending on how many blades I have to sharpen (usually at least 4 or 5), I start out with the blades I want a straight edge on (block, jointer), then I go to my smoother, then to blades with more camber (fore, jack). Then I might reflatten once (it only takes 20 seconds or so per stone) to do chisels or other small blades.
You can polish an edge on the wheel, I've seen tons of info on this forum about that (Jake Darvall for example) but I don't know how it would work to flatten or polish backs (?).
Norton 8000 stones can be permanently soaked, but you can also just fill your container with the right amount of water so about half a stone soaks while the other (top) half doesn't.
Paul Chapman
Established Member
woden":29r3qix1 said:
When it comes to leather strops you will get yet more differences of opinion. For most plane and chisel blades, I favour a piece of leather stuck to something dead flat - mine is glued to 36mm thick MDF. Like Woodbloke, I use a mixture of Vaseline and jewellers rouge. I keep the blade in the honing guide when polishing the bevel so as to ensure I keep the angle constant then polish the other side dead flat. If you use the strop on a wheel I think there is a danger of rounding over the edge. The only time I use a wheel is when honing the bevel side of beading blades - for this I have made up some MDF wheels, shaped with a rasp to match the shape of the curved bevel, on which I use polishing compound. But I polish the flat side on the flat strop. You will find that you can get a mirror finish very quickly on a strop.
Choices, choices - who needs 'em :lol:
Cheers :wink:
Paul
Philly
Established Member
Woden
I'm a big fan of waterstones. But the important thing is not the medium you use BUT getting a regimented sharpening routine. One that works for you, and that you can obtain repeatable, excellent results. All the stones available (water, oil, diamond, etc) will give excellent results - but only if you learn the best way to use them to obtain the result you are after.
There is a wealth of information on this forum - use the search facility to read about the various sharpening mediums and methods. Then choose the one thats sounds best for you and have a go!
Hope this helps
Philly
I'm a big fan of waterstones. But the important thing is not the medium you use BUT getting a regimented sharpening routine. One that works for you, and that you can obtain repeatable, excellent results. All the stones available (water, oil, diamond, etc) will give excellent results - but only if you learn the best way to use them to obtain the result you are after.
There is a wealth of information on this forum - use the search facility to read about the various sharpening mediums and methods. Then choose the one thats sounds best for you and have a go!
Hope this helps
Philly
