Waterstones or diamond stones?

[woden]

Not sure whether this should be in the hand tools section or buying advice. :? Anyway, up until now I've used the scary sharp method involving wet or dry sandpaper to hone my edges. However, I've become fed up with the finer grit papers tearing, the hassle of getting the stuff off the glass when the paper needs replacing, the stuff wearing out too quickly... and so on. So, I thought I'd plump for another option - waterstones or diamond stones.

An awful lot of people seem to be using water stones and this leads me to believe they're the better route to go down. Something must be right if all those people are using them. They seem to have the advantage over diamond stones of coming in finer grits allowing a better polish when honing. At least I think I'm right in believing that an 8000 waterstone is finer than a 1200 diamond stone. The drawback of waterstones is that you seemingly have to flatten them frequently - a drawback not shared by diamond stones.

Then there's the question of what grits of each I'd need. Obviously, I'd like to buy no more than what's needed to do the job. So in the case of waterstones would I get away with a 1000/8000 combination stone for honing after shaping with a grinder? Or would I need something in between - is the leap from 1000 to 8000 too much?

As for diamond stones would 600 and 1200 grit do the job for honing? Or are diamond stones best used only as a base with the final stages of honing done with diamond pastes?

Finally, which brands should I be thinking about? Are Norton's any good and although there's likely to be a trade off in quality against price are the cheapo offerings of Axminster worth a look?

Ps. I take it the bigger the dimensions of the stones the better if you're using a clumsy honing guide like me?

 

[ByronBlack]

Woden

I would recommend the Ice Bear kit from axminster. You get two stones, a low grit and fine grit, also a holder and a nagura stone for cleaning the waterstones, it's very well priced. I would also add in a low grit diamond stone for use of flattening the waterstones, this would give you a fast and flexible system.

I don't believe there is need to have more than 2 grits of waterstones, atleast i've not felt the need anyway, the two stones with the icebear kit are superb and I get really nice sharp edges with this setup.

They are also plenty wide enough to take a honing guide.

 

[Anonymous]

Oil stone.

cheers
Jacob

 

[MrJay]

Ceramic stones are the future.

I also find the whole darned thing confusing.

 

[woden]

I would recommend the Ice Bear kit from axminster.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll check that out. What are the two grits that you get with that package? I'm now wondering would I even need a grit as fine as 8000 as I intend to strop the edges on a hard felt wheel with honing compound on a grinder? Maybe a set up with something like 1000 then 4000 and then onto the felt strop would give me all the polishing I'd need.

Is the nagura stone really necessary if you frequently flatten your waterstones thus revealing new fresh grit?

Ceramic stones are the future.

I haven't heard of these, are they any good? If they cut as quickly as a waterstone but don't need flattened as often I might go for these instead. I wonder are they similar in make up to those new ceramic grindstones Peter Child and Norton are producing?

 

[Paul Chapman]

Woden,

There are lots of different options. I use DMT diamond stones with WD40 (don't like water) and finish off with a leather strop and polishing compound. Very fast, not much mess and the stones stay flat. Gidon did two demonstrations, one with water stones and one with diamond stones, which you might find helpful http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=gidonreid

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Edit. Just noticed, there's also a demo by Alf on that youtube link of free-hand sharpening using an oil stone.

 

[Anonymous]

I managed for donkeys years with a Norton fine india for most things.
To me,ceramics always feel like they are glazed as you use them, so i'm not a fan, and in my mind waterstones are too messy and need flattening and maintenance for them to be practical, especially if you need them away from the bench, but you can get a fantastic edge from them.
I now use a Trend diamondstone (dual sided) which i've had for about 4 or 5 years I think. I seldom use anything else, I can easily hone an edge sharp enough to shave hairs off my arm in less than a minute if i'm demoing and chatting, at a show, which should be more than enough for 90percent of woodworking needs. I also have a leather strop on a piece of ply which I use with some honing soap if needed to tweak it a little if I feel i have to. Mind you, I can do the same with my old Norton :roll:
Diamonds work for me, guaranteed flat if you pay the money, and also go for mono crystaline as they are more durable than polycrystaline, which the better ones should be.Trend sell a cutting fluid as well, which although I use cos they gave me some, I wouldn't personally buy,I'd go for my old fave, WD40, or, because its free, and I'm half scottish, good old spit. But make sure you get the stone bone dry before you store it if you do spit or water lube it.
Personally, I find its more technique than stones/scary sharp choice, but its what you are comfortable with that counts at the end of the day...
Oh, and I prefer a continuous diamond over a holey type as the way I sharpen freehand means the smaller chisels dig in the holes, but if you use a guide, or hone square to the stone, its not such a problem.

Andy

 

[Colin C]

I use one of the Eze-lap diamond stone and have had it for about 8 years ( still going ), also have two Ceramic stones but they do glaze with time and are just used for finer edges.

Ps The EZE-Lap diamond stone have polycrystaline diamond so I am not sure about the others lasting longer ( by the way I am a full time cabinet maker )

Regards Colin

 

[Chris Knight]

I find waterstones far too messy for general use and having tried most things have settled on diamond stones for general woodworking. I generally use DMT stones (the red and the green will do fine) but also like the Trend mentioned by Andy.

I wouldn't touch ceramics with a bargepole. They are hardly ever flat and just about impossible to flatten, also I have found them to glaze over very quickly.

For a very fine finish I use an 8000 grit waterstone (the finer grits only need spraying with water) or one of my Arkansas stones (normally used for carving chisels). A leather strop can be used to finish off.

An ordinary cheap oilstone will also get you to the point where you need a finer stone to complete the sharpening task. I just find diamonds the least messy option.

To check for a sharp edge, push the blade into the edge of a piece of paper - it should cut without tearing. The softer the paper the more rigorous this test is - newspaper is a pretty good test. The blade should also leave a fine finish on end grain without any scratches, or raised tracks being left in the surface - both indicate a less than sharp blade. These tests are more rigorous than arm hair).

 

[David C]

I have also had serious problems with ceramic stones not being flat.

David

 

[Anonymous]

Start the job with a DMT and finish with a waterstone

Works for me

 

[Alf]

Sheesh, this's morning's ticking me off - must have lost the connection a dozen times already...

Anyway, sharpening media. I see them this way; others may (will) disagree:

Waterstones:
Quick
Wear fast so lots of flattening (but they wear fast so it's quick)
You really need a sink handy 'cos they're messy
Water - not my favourite medium to go with tool steel personally
Many available grit sizes available up to very fine for the polishing-minded
Relatively cheap

Oilstones:
Percieved as slow - depends on the stone and maintenance of same (a Washita, f'instance, is fast as lightning)
Wear slow so not much flattening (but if you let them get severely dished it may take Some Time)
Oil can be messy and some folks don't care for it.
Not happy with weirdo A2 etc steel
Wide range of grit sizes
Prices pretty similar to waterstones for similar grades - finer = more expensive - but will last a lifetime.

Ceramics:
Rarely flat and virtually impossible to correct. Any benefits are therefore somewhat null and void.

Diamond stones:
Quick
Flat and stay flat
Can be used with water, WD40, paraffin to suit all tastes
Pretty clean
Some users report wearing out quickly - possibly not for the heavy-handed?
Finest grade is still a little coarse for the really, really fine edge
Expensive

Diamond paste:
Very quick
Flat as the substrate you use
Difficult to find suitable substrates for maximum effective use
Many, many grades available from back-flatteningly coarse up to really, really, really fine
Bit of a fiddle with syringes and avoiding cross-contamination of grit sizes, however once a surface is "charged" it lasts a long time.
Cheap, depending on the substrate

Honing paste:
Can be used on a strop or powered on a honing wheel
Honing wheel fast, but equally very quick at dubbing the edge if you're not careful.
Fine finish only
Cheap

Me, I use 45 micron diamond paste on acrylic for back flattening, coarse (if really necessary) and fine DMT diamond stone, Washita oil stone to finish. If I need a super sharp edge for smoothing or summat then either 0.25 micron diamond (on a kitchen worktop offcut) or honing wheel, possibly skipping the Washita. It all depends on the state of the edge, variety of tool steel and what I'm going to be using it for.

Basically it boils down to coarse, medium and fine - what you choose to use at each stage is personal choice 'cos the wood won't know how you got to "sharp".

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

Colin C wrote:

Ps The EZE-Lap diamond stone have polycrystaline diamond so I am not sure about the others lasting longer

Alf wrote:

Some users report wearing out quickly - possibly not for the heavy-handed?

This may be part and parcel of the same thing? As far as I'm aware, polycrystaline diamonds will fracture and wear down much the same as aluminium oxide paper etc, so over the course of time will sit lower in the nickel plate, eventually so low as not to cut as they used to.
Monocrystaline is a single diamond form, less likely to fracture, so once worn in, should sit in the nickel the same as when new, therefore lasting far longer and retaining a more uniform cutting performance. They can still wear of course, and the harder steels now will no doubt be a factor.
I certainly find that with the hard a2 and the like, even that feels like its skating sometimes. I much prefer to feel the 'bite' of the tool as you work it over the stone, no matter what the choice of sharpening medium, so prefer a slightly softer steel. And of course, the need to sharpen more frequently hones :!: your skills at the art.
Mind you, if you want to try and wear a diamond stone out or some rock hard steel, try and sharpen Ian Dalziels plane iron with a single bevel! I know after about 2-3 hours of constantly running it up and down the stone I was worn out!

Andy

 

[Nick W]

For a while now I've been having problems with the idea that sharpening surfaces need to be 'perfectly' flat, and hence that ceramic stones are not acceptable. This is not to say that any old surface will do, it does need to be flat enough. Perhaps it is the engineer in me, clawing itself to the surface.

The important thing about sharpening is that the two surfaces that meet at the edge should end up as polished as possible, or maybe the should be as polished as necessary - a scrub plane blade does not need to be as sharp as a paring chisel (he says, ducking and running). They do not need to be flat or we would never add a gentle curve to our plane blades, and as for moulding planes ... :lol:

Now, as long as the sharpening surface is reasonably flat and smooth, without gross surface distortions (e.g. being concave overall), and not having surface features that run parallel to the sharpening motion (and even this is irrelelvant if you're not using a purely back-and forth motion for your sharpening), then the movement of the blade over the sharpening surface will result in the surface of the blade becoming sharp. The blade may ride on the high spots, but as long as all parts of the blade get to ride on those high spots, and as long as those high spots are not too spread out or too pronounced, then all parts will get sharpened. Do that on two meeting surfaces and you will have a sharp edge.

It may even be that by localising the pressure a little, non-perfect surfaces could speed the sharpening process, but I'm not prepared to defend that idea.

Now although two surfaces on the blade may not end up perfectly flat, and hence perfectly straight, they will be flat enough for our purposes. You never know, that slight imperfection may even add to the hand made look that most of us are after. The only place where a 'perfectly' flat surface might be necessary is the back of a chisel, for when it acts as the guiding surface to a cut. Again I reckon that a flat enough stone does a good enough job, but if you want to want to go for 'perfect' flatness, save your efforts for this.

In case anyone thinks that I am trying to rubbish the work that David C does in the field of sharpening let me say that I think it is of great value, in understanding both what sharpness is, and how to obtain it. I just think that in his search for perfection David goes a bit further than most of us need in our day-to-day lives. If you should get a chance to go on one of his courses, or buy his videos, then I would unreservedly encourage you to do so. I certainly enjoyed the course I went on, and learnt a lot.

Stands back and waits for incoming flack.

 

[Colin C]

From what I have used I think Alf has it about right but you can get daimond stones at a fare price from Tilgear.

They start from £15.95 for a 6"x2" to £47.50 for a Duo grit stone, all plus vat ( the Duo is 8"x3" )

They are the Eze-Lap stones which I am very happy with

 

[Colin C]

Thanks for that Andy

The thing is I have had my stone for about 8-10 years and they still cut well, I have noticed that they dont cut as well as they did when I got them.

I can still get a good edge on them and I am not a light user :?

Ps They cost me just over £20 when I got them which will do me

 

[Paul Chapman]

I've used three DMT polka dot stones - 8" long in coarse, fine and extra fine - for several years now. One thing that I've been impressed with is that all three are equally flat and have stayed that way. I can switch from one stone to the other confident that there will be no variation in flatness between the stones. If I used different types of stones with varying wear rates and flatness, I think it would drive me bonkers.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

Not sure whether this should be in the hand tools section or buying advice. :? Anyway, up until now I've used the scary sharp method involving wet or dry sandpaper to hone my edges. However, I've become fed up with the finer grit papers tearing, the hassle of getting the stuff off the glass when the paper needs replacing, the stuff wearing out too quickly... and so on. So, I thought I'd plump for another option - waterstones or diamond stones.

Another option is freehand sharpening, which saves a lot of bother.
I've summarised my ideas on this here http://www.owdman.co.uk/joinery/sharpening.htm (it's work in progress).
I suspect diamond might be better than oil stones but I haven't tried them yet.

snip if you're using a clumsy honing guide like me?

Dump the guide - they are the cause of most peoples sharpening problems IMHO, for 2 principle reasons; first you can't get the pressure so it's slow, second you need the super flatness - and most of your effort/kit becomes devoted to this. Flatness not an issue with freehand sharpening.

cheers
Jacob

 

[ByronBlack]

Not sure whether this should be in the hand tools section or buying advice. :? Anyway, up until now I've used the scary sharp method involving wet or dry sandpaper to hone my edges. However, I've become fed up with the finer grit papers tearing, the hassle of getting the stuff off the glass when the paper needs replacing, the stuff wearing out too quickly... and so on. So, I thought I'd plump for another option - waterstones or diamond stones.

Another option is freehand sharpening, which saves a lot of bother.
I've summarised my ideas on this here http://www.owdman.co.uk/joinery/sharpening.htm (it's work in progress).
I suspect diamond might be better than oil stones but I haven't tried them yet.

snip if you're using a clumsy honing guide like me?

Dump the guide - they are the cause of most peoples sharpening problems IMHO, for 2 principle reasons; first you can't get the pressure so it's slow, second you need the super flatness - and most of your effort/kit becomes devoted to this. Flatness not an issue with freehand sharpening.

cheers
Jacob

I have to disagree about the guide. If your comfortable with the guide, then use the guide. I learned how to do it freehand by Burce Luckhurst, and it was a very sound technique and i've used it since the course (about 18months ago) however, the guide for me is quicker, I CAN get enough pressure on it, and i've never noticed any problems with having to have perfect flatness on the stone. I use waterstones and I know they aren't perfectly flat but I still get excellent results with the guide and will be sticking with it over hand-use.

In my eye's, the 'do it by hand' argument has a little snobbery attached to it in the same way the doing dovetails by hand as opposed to a jig does. In my very amateur and humble opinion, stick with what your comfortable with and your results will be better.

 

[Alf]

Andy, it could well be that's some of the trouble, but I'm fairly sure DMT users have been amongst the complainants. Of course you don't know how many can be put down to the results of the natural beddng in period of new stones that to the uninitiated might be taken as losing bite.

Nick, I think it's fair to say the ceramic stones are not even reasonably flat never mind perfectly. Whether flatness is a necessity possibly depends on the individual - personally it'd annoy me to take the trouble to flatten the back of a chisel and then know I'm potentially fouling it up every time I re-hone. But YMMV as our 'Murrican friends say.

Cheers, Alf