WARNING ABOUT USING SENECA ADAPTER WITH XL700 DOMINO

[MikeJhn]

This is the first review on Axminster's site for the XL700 dated 11th January 2017

It is a machine that has a big question mark concerning its reliability

I write both as a joiner and cabinet maker of 50 plus years experience as man and boy, and also as a Baptist minister who since entering the ministry over 20 plus years ago undertakes occasional commissions for items of furniture. I have bought many Festool machine and in general I have found them to be excellent although one would have to say; very expensive. I bought the Domino XL to complement my Dewalt biscuit cutter (horses for courses) but it was very much an extravagant purchase as I knew that by the nature of my woodworking being these days more a hobby than a occupation, that it would have limited use. One year out of warranty having not been used for about six months and in being kept in its box in a dry environment I used it and it broke down in cutting the first joint. I had to resort to using my tried, tested and trusted but rather old biscuit cutter. The cost for repairing the Domino XL is some £280 inclusive of VAT. What can I say? Quite simply, My wide experience in the wood working industry ( I used both large plant like Weinig and Wadkin and both the hand tools of my grandfather and father before me as well as my own) tells me that there is something fundamentally wrong with the XL as it should not have broken down with the limited use that it has had, and it was never abused in any way. I have paid to have it repaired but I really don't know if I am throwing good money after bad on this machine and it would seem to me that Festool do not really want to know about my complaint beyond repairing the machine.

Maybe a batch problem? but attitudes don't have a batch problem or do they?

Mike

 

[Doug B]

I didn't realise the XL had been released as long ago as 2011, time flies.

 

[sploo]

I'm very dubious that the adapter plus DF500 bit would have a major effect on the DF700 gearbox. When you think about the human variability factor here; i.e. the varying speeds with which a user may plunge the bit into material, plus the variability in material density, I'd expect that to have a bigger range than the difference between a DF500 bit and a DF700 bit.

Pushing a 14mm DF700 bit into dense material would surely put more load on the motor and gearbox than anything you could achieve with a DF500 bit and the adaptor.

I could certainly see issues with the DF700 damaging the smaller DF500 bits, and Festool refusing warranties on that.

 

[chippy1970]

I can't find anything on FOG. Maybe it's worth Adam or one of us posting there?

It was discussed on there years ago so you'd have to read lots of threads to find it.

Sent from my ALE-L21 using Tapatalk

 

[pike]

I can't find anything on FOG. Maybe it's worth Adam or one of us posting there?

It was discussed on there years ago so you'd have to read lots of threads to find it.

Sent from my ALE-L21 using Tapatalk

Isn't that what the search feature is for? I couldn't find anything.

 

[chippy1970]

I can't find anything on FOG. Maybe it's worth Adam or one of us posting there?

It was discussed on there years ago so you'd have to read lots of threads to find it.

Sent from my ALE-L21 using Tapatalk

Isn't that what the search feature is for? I couldn't find anything.

Well I read it so I know it existed . Also it was a comment on another topic possibly so that might not show on your search.

Forgive me for not directing you straight to it all I can do is repeat what I'd read and that others have confirmed. That the 700 wasn't designed to run small diameter cutters and this could damage the gearbox.

Just to repeat I did not say that I just read it on the FOG.

Sent from my ALE-L21 using Tapatalk

 

[pike]

chippy I don't doubt you read something. All I was saying is as there doesn't appear to be anything on the FOG about it maybe someone might want to bring it up there.

 

[chippy1970]

chippy I don't doubt you read something. All I was saying is as there doesn't appear to be anything on the FOG about it maybe someone might want to bring it up there.

They already have I think it was Doug who's posted over there.

Sent from my ALE-L21 using Tapatalk

 

[Simou1]

The brown stuff is just about to hit the fan on the FOG with the original design guru of the adapter, Rick Christopherson, wading in. Interesting stuff and of course the usual barrack room lawyers have added their four penneth worth so I expect we will have a teddy bear in the corner boxing match sooner rather than later. Get the popcorn in!

I have no idea whether the £75 bolt is affecting the gearbox on the Domino XL and frankly, as I bought both to do specific tasks, I couldn't give a damm (as Reb Butler once said).

Nonetheless, and irrespective of where the thread finally ends up, I am grateful to Adam for raising the point, as his sole purpose in posting was to warn those who use the adapter of a potentially expensive repair bill should the tool fail. Or possibly a warning to remove Exhibit A when sending a poorly Domino back to the Festool A&E!

 

[MikeJhn]

I think you have that right, DO NOT send an after market non manufactures bit back on your machine when you hope to have a warranty repair. :roll:

Mike

 

[pike]

Didn't realise Doug's bump had got FOG talking Interesting stuff!

 

[MikeJhn]

Post from Rick Christopherson on FOG

Here's a little tidbit of information that very few people know, including Festool. Hasn't anyone ever wondered why the adapter has such a non-Seneca-like name "RTS-500"? That was Ryan and Ron Wenner's behind-the-scenes "thank you" to me for giving them the full detailed design of the adapter.

You see, they had started using my local machine supplier as their own a few months earlier. During an office visit to my supplier, I noticed Seneca was contemplating designing the adapter. Except I had already completed the design for myself months earlier. I could have been in production and on the market within days, but instead, I decided to turn the whole thing over to my long time friends at Seneca.

The thing is, I seriously doubt that Festool would have dared to suggest the adapter was causing warranty issues if they had realized it was actually my design. But I doubt that this is coming from Festool corporate, but simply a service technician not familiar with the actual engineering behind the DF700 nor the RTS-500.

From an engineering standpoint, the RTS-500 isn't adapting the tool to use the smaller cutters. It is adapting the smaller cutters to use the tool. That may sound like a trivial distinction, but to an engineer, it is significant. It also means that it is not the cause of warranty claims.

Mike

For those who don't know who he is, look here: http://www.waterfront-woods.com/festool/

 

[Doug71]

Didn't mean to cause any trouble

Pike, just seen you're from York, I'm about 15 miles outside York.

Doug

 

[Simou1]

"The thing is, I seriously doubt that Festool would have dared to suggest the adapter was causing warranty issues if they had realized it was actually my design. But I doubt that this is coming from Festool corporate, but simply a service technician not familiar with the actual engineering behind the DF700 nor the RTS-500."

"Do they know who I am?" I love the "dared" bit!

As we speak the hapless technician who diagnosed, nay had the temerity to suggest the bolt was at fault, is on a specially chartered Ju52 to Schloss Festool where he will be offered a last cigarette before being shot.

'Simply a service technician', how condescendingly quaint and said In such a tone of indignation. Love it!

 

[rywen]

Thank you to everyone who supports the Seneca Woodworking brand and brought this to our attention! We launched this company with the help and support of many forum members and believe it is important to address this issue on the forums. Your input is what helps us ensure we can develop high quality products and continue to meet your expectations.

As a manufacturer of aftermarket accessories, we are not affiliated with Festool and cannot speak for them on their warranty policies. At the time of this writing, we are not aware of any official Festool statement concerning our products voiding their warranty.

We still have to offer the disclaimer in regards to warranty coverage, that our products should be "used at your own risk" as Festool's warranty policy is outside of our control and could always change in the future.

We took great care in engineering our cutter adapter so that the forces exerted on the Domino Xl / DF 700 using the DF 500 cutters with our adapter are less than the machine normally experiences when using the standard DF 700 cutters. We manufacture in the USA using the highest quality materials, processes, and quality checks.

Our cutter adapter has been on the market for nearly four years, in daily use by both hobbyists and production shops, and this is the first instance that's been reported to us where our product is alleged to have caused a warranty issue.  It seems very unlikely to us that any kind of gearbox/spindle issue could be directly caused by our adapter.

As part of our due diligence, we will review our engineering methodology to ensure we continue to meet our commitment to quality.


-Ryan Wenner
Creative Persistence LLC / Seneca Woodworking 

 

[rywen]

Also, For those looking for more discussion of the adapter, Here's the original FOG thread where we announced it:

festoolownersgroup com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/4mm-5mm-6mm-adatper-for-domino-xl-(df700)/msg259194/#msg259194

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Well, there you have it....I said we should tread carefully in this thread.

I think when company A accuses company B of producing something that is directly responsible for an engineering fault, they had better back it up with a detailed and credible explanation of what the underlying cause is.

Come on Festool: lets see you "fess up" to either some engineering facts that make sense of the causality that justifies a voided warranty or an alternative plausible explanation.

 

[MikeJhn]

Who is Rick Christopherson? in relation to Festool, I for one don't know except that he has written a few manuals.

I have also not seen a definitive statement from Festool that the Seneca adaptor cause's a warranty issue? at the moment its only hearsay.

Mike

 

[Simou1]

This is getting really interesting! The difference between the indignant response of Rick Christopherson and the measured response of the Seneca CEO is marked. However I do note that the CEO has not quoted the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act but rather has re-iterated that use of the Seneca adapter is, 'at your own risk'.

That, it seems to me, is the correct response and one which anyone with a modicum of sense would take on board and understand when purchasing a third party accessory.

Interestingly there is a Domino XL 700 adapter for sale on EBay which is half the price of the Seneca adapter. I would hazard a guess that this particular adapter is made in a far away place and not to the engineering standards of excellence and commercial integrity that Seneca clearly follow.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the use of an adapter that is made of monkey metal in a far away place and balanced and engineered by someone who really does need to visit Specsavers could affect the fine engineering tolerances of the Domino machine.

Festool should not have differentiate between a Seneca or a Jinglanshinwa copy. They have designed and produced machines of different sizes and capacities to meet specific tasks and thus, when you buy one you do so knowing their capabilities. As previously stated, you use an adapter at your own risk.

 

[MikeJhn]

Interestingly there is a Domino XL 700 adapter for sale on EBay which is half the price of the Seneca adapter. I would hazard a guess that this particular adapter is made in a far away place and not to the engineering standards of excellence and commercial integrity that Seneca clearly follow.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the use of an adapter that is made of monkey metal in a far away place and balanced and engineered by someone who really does need to visit Specsavers could affect the fine engineering tolerances of the Domino machine.

Festool should not have differentiate between a Seneca or a Jinglanshinwa copy. .

Unverified accusation against a new supplier, for all we know its made in the exactly the same conditions and to the same standard, I know this is unlikely, but until someone has inspected both, its a guess.

Where have Festool differentiated between the two?

MIke