Ward chisels and gouges, but not Ward & Payne?

[JohnPW]

Hello,

Has anybody got or seen "Ward" chisels or gouges but presumably are not ""Ward & Payne"?

I have a couple of small (well used!) Ward gouges:

"Ward" is the only marking. The only info online I can find is:
http://www.alte-beitel.de/ward.html

which says:
James Ward (& Son)
27 Old Kent Road, London 1885-1895

I know Ward & Payne was originally founded as, or its predecessor, were David Ward, David Ward & Sons or David Ward & Co, before becoming Ward & Payne in 1843(?) . How were their tools marked?
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Ward_and_Payne
http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php? ... t_thread=1

 

[Cheshirechappie]

According to BPM2, David Ward of Portobello Street, Sheffield, was in business from 1824 - 1859. In 1859, he went into partnership with Henry Payne, thus creating the long-lived and respected maker Ward and Payne.

The shoulder shape of those gouges, and the large bolsters, are consistent with those produced in the early 19th century; I think they're the work of David Ward's firm before the days of the W&P partnership.

 

[JohnPW]

Hi, thanks for that. I was editing my post to add stuff about David Ward, so has anyone seen or know how the pre-Payne Ward tools were marked?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Richard Arnold's the man to ask - with a bit of luck he'll be along in due course.

 

[Mr_P]

BSSM has David Ward starting in 1821 going to 1846 but continuing as Ward Payne well into the 20th century

info from here

http://www.backsaw.net/forum/index.php? ... pring.725/

edit
BSSM is Simon Barley's excellent book, I will buy it honest

book-review-british-saws-saw-makers-from-c1600-t83196.html

 

[richarnold]

Hi I'm sure someone has already put this info up before me, so I cannot take credit for it, but I hope it helps.
Cheers Richard
Before discussing the Sheffield years, we should discuss the firm of Ward &
Payne. Much is known and written about them so the following is just enough
to place them in perspective and allow us to continue the story. Apologies
for any errors in the company's early history.

Many companies, especially Ward & Payne, had a penchant for marketing and
the tendency to claim they were older and bigger than they actually were.
This summary has little interest in whether Ward & Payne was discontinuous
with the previous David Ward company or not, as The Hawley reports shows
clearly, and will discuss Ward & Payne as the continuation and growth of an
old family-based company.

Ward & Payne was founded in Sheffield by one David Ward, edge-tool
manufacturer in 1803. The company had the name David Ward. David Ward's
son Edward joined the company around 1837 and the company name was changed
to David Ward & Sons or David Ward & Co. Perhaps both names were used in
succession.

Henry Payne appears as an edge tool maker in 1837 and joins the company
prior to 1845. Perhaps he joined in 1837 and caused the name change to
David Ward & Co. In 1843 Henry Payne registered the well-known Ward & Payne
trade mark of the crossed hammers above an anvil with W to the left and P to
the right. Henry Payne became junior partner in 1845 and died in 1850 and
ownership of the company reverted back to the Ward family. After 1845 the
firm built a large business in edge tools concentrating on carving tools,
chisels and gouges.

Another David Ward (1835 - 1889), possibly the son of Edward Ward, took over
the company in 1855 and was apparently an aggressive young executive with
the company before that. He grew the company's fortunes in both the sheep
shearing scissor and carving tool businesses. The company grew, expanded
their factory to a full city block and published a 501 page catalog in 1911.
They were apparently still in business up to around 1970.

 

[JohnPW]

Hi I'm sure someone has already put this info up before me, so I cannot take credit for it, but I hope it helps.
Cheers Richard
Before discussing the Sheffield years, we should discuss the firm of Ward &
Payne. Much is known and written about them so the following is just enough
to place them in perspective and allow us to continue the story. Apologies
for any errors in the company's early history.

Many companies, especially Ward & Payne, had a penchant for marketing and
the tendency to claim they were older and bigger than they actually were.
This summary has little interest in whether Ward & Payne was discontinuous
with the previous David Ward company or not, as The Hawley reports shows
clearly, and will discuss Ward & Payne as the continuation and growth of an
old family-based company.

Ward & Payne was founded in Sheffield by one David Ward, edge-tool
manufacturer in 1803. The company had the name David Ward. David Ward's
son Edward joined the company around 1837 and the company name was changed
to David Ward & Sons or David Ward & Co. Perhaps both names were used in
succession.

Henry Payne appears as an edge tool maker in 1837 and joins the company
prior to 1845. Perhaps he joined in 1837 and caused the name change to
David Ward & Co. In 1843 Henry Payne registered the well-known Ward & Payne
trade mark of the crossed hammers above an anvil with W to the left and P to
the right. Henry Payne became junior partner in 1845 and died in 1850 and
ownership of the company reverted back to the Ward family. After 1845 the
firm built a large business in edge tools concentrating on carving tools,
chisels and gouges.

Another David Ward (1835 - 1889), possibly the son of Edward Ward, took over
the company in 1855 and was apparently an aggressive young executive with
the company before that. He grew the company's fortunes in both the sheep
shearing scissor and carving tool businesses. The company grew, expanded
their factory to a full city block and published a 501 page catalog in 1911.
They were apparently still in business up to around 1970.

Thanks, I've already linked to that web page, about halfway down, that's where I got the 1843 as the starting year for Ward & Payne:
http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php? ... t_thread=1

Mine are 8mm and 9mm, approx 3/8.

 

[whiskywill]

I have some chisels marked WARD but with the W x P alongside. Are these of a particular era or could they be from anywhere between 1843 and the mid/late 20th century?

 

[okeydokey]

Hi whiskywill
See your online at the moment. Ive just picked up a real 11/2" thumper of a chisel from the man next to me at the rubbish dump.
Its marked WARD with cast steel below it and W X P above. Reading this post maybe its in the 1850's But although its been used for opening tins it doesn't look that old. I will google around and see if I can find more info. cheers

 

[whiskywill]

Everything comes to he who waits. Nearly two and a half years on and I get a response to my question. Hope you have more luck than I did in luck in finding more information.

 

[okeydokey]

Hi yes a bit of a rush to reply - stunning init
I found this on the web - old tools archive somewhere

David Ward was in business from1824 to1859. He formed a partnership with
Payne in 1860 and the firm became Ward and Payne. They were in business
from 1860 until sometime in the late 1960's. Along the way they acquired
the Addis company. If the chisel you have only has "Ward" stamped on it
it was probably made prior to 1860. It will probably also have "cast
steel" stamped on it somewhere.

So..... if as mine its got WARD...... but also the W and P bit somewhere then its anytime between 1860's and late 1960's
Unless I can find more that is........................................................

BTW sharpened chisel has nice solid edge good tool

 

[whiskywill]

BTW sharpened chisel has nice solid edge good tool

And very nicely balanced with the wooden handle. Much better than modern plastic handled chisels.