Walnut dining table

[Racers]

I would imagine screws, you think he would try and match the grain of the plugs.

Pete

 

[gasman]

Thans Pete
I asked the designer about the construction and he replied in a very nice post to me 'the table is designed in such a way as to allow the top to expand and contract across the grain with the seasons. We are hesitant to divulge our engineering details as we have had problems in the past with people replicating our designs'. Fair game really - but I think I have a plan now and will draw sketchup plan this week. Started looking at board selection for the top. It is beautiful walnut.
All this walnut is inch and 3/4" so I will have to match the grain reasonably to join pieces for the legs.
Thanks once again for your helpful advice
Regards Mark

 

[gasman]

A bit of sketchup later and I'm getting happier with the design...
Here's the finished article:

Underneath there is a midline stretcher as suggested

The rails joining the legs together are made in 2 pieces, joined together by 4 screws in a slot to allow some movement. The stretcher is attached to the 'inside one' of these two pieces. There is an expansion gap which as shown is only 2mm but I will wait and see how dry the timber is before deciding the exact gap.
The rails and stretchers will be attached to the table bottom by buttons. The table top will be attached directly to each leg by plugged screws going down into the leg from the top and into the table side from the leg as per the original design. I think this will be strong enough for what I want - and its never going to be moved once in place so shouldn't get too much stress
Thanks all - criticism welcome - especially if I have missed something obvious
Cheers
Mark

 

[SteveF]

I havent got much to offer as far as build goes
only comment is the gap at the ends
it looks odd offset and would bug me
any reason it has to be like that?
or possible put a "fake cut" to balance it out

Steve

 

[gasman]

Thanks Steve - yes good point and I already thought I will make the 2 pieces asymmetric so that the gap is central at each end

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Still looks potentially wobbly to me. That sliding lap joint needs to slide freely logitudinally, whilst resisting twisting whch would lead to racking, and bending the stop the top cupping. Not convinced four screws will d othat for many seasons.

Might there not be an advantage in making the stretchers in three parts. A long central bit, and a stubby bit on each leg.

- it is symmetrical
- the central rail can be immovably fixed - even glued - to the top.
- the central rail can be mortice/tenoned near full thickness into the stretchers, without having to stop short to avoid the sliding joint.
- the middle part of the stretcher can be fixed rigidly to the top at the centre, and with slotted holes towards each end, and serves as a cleat to keep the top flat.
- the end bits can be attached rigidly to the top close to the leg, and again with a slotted screw further in.

Still think it might not last so long as a traditional construction.

 

[Adam9453]

I think the strength of the widthways stretchers would benefit a lot from being joined to the top by a sliding long dovetail. It would still allow movement laterally but resist racking more than buttons in my opinion.
Having said that I also think i'd make the widthways stretchers in three parts (as suggested above) but again with sliding dovetails to join the outer parts to the central portion. These again would allow movement but would be stronger than screws in slots, especially after some time has passed and the screws work loose.
Feel free to ignore or correct me

 

[novocaine]

if you intend to have the stringer as you've shown you will need to make the stretcher in 3 parts, else it will move with one side as the table expands.

it looks to be to be form over function and coming up with a solution that doesn't work with the wood, but fights with it.

 

[Adam9453]

Just looked at the chairs in the photo and I wonder if its actually made using a maloof style joint to attach the legs.
They are known to be a very strong joint so might be enough to make this design work.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

That's a thought. And looking at this image of another table:

It is clear that it relies a lot on that joint, not the stretchers, which are just a cleat to keep the top flat. All looks like it will not last to become a family hairloom to me.

 

[andersonec]

I would hazard a guess that it is a veneered top but if you want to use your boards, bring them into the house, stack them with sticks between each plank, place what you think would be heavy enough weights on top to stop them bending and then double it, leave them there for a month then make your table.

Andy

 

[custard]

They are known to be a very strong joint

But they're just not. At best they're acceptable given that Maloof chairs are looked at more than sat in!

What this thread seems to be ignoring is that between the two extremes of joinery (bomb proof and comically flimsy) there are a huge range of joinery options that sit somewhere in the middle. This table (and Maloof chair joinery) are in that middle area, personally I'd suggest the table is towards the flimsy end of the spectrum, but used carefully in a domestic situation you'd probably get away with it, put it into a works canteen though and it wouldn't last out the first year. That's okay, it's horses for courses, I've made and sold furniture that's towards the flimsy end of the spectrum, but I emphasise to clients this may look pretty but it's probably not suited to households with small boys or big dogs!

 

[Adam9453]

Interesting to hear you say that about the maloof joint, it certainly contradicts everything I've heard about it. I've yet to build my maloof style rocker (I have the templates but not got time to start yet) so it'll be interesting to see for myself how strong the joint is when I make the practise joints before doing the joints in the actual piece.
i plan to use the rocker so if the joint is not strong enough then I'll be redesigning the chair accordingly.

 

[gasman]

Thanks gents for your considered opinions. I agree with almost all the points. One important point is that this table is going in my dining room not a clients'. I would not make a table to this design for a client. So I can make changes to it as necessary - even rebuild it if required.
I will try to use quarter sawn timber where available which will limit the amount of movement and I will put all the boards for the top inside over the Christmas period to dry out for a month. They are currently at 11% moisture or so - personally I would be surprised if the movement across the 1000mm top will be more that 10mm from here on but I stand to be corrected on that.
I will let you know how I get on
Thanks and regards
Mark

 

[gasman]

It has taken a while but have now finally got round to starting this table.
The wood was actually very dry at 8-9%

I tried to grain match as much as possible. Jointed 6 boards with 50x10mm dominos to form the top

Its ended up a nice slab.

For the rails I decided upon a sliding dovetail design
Each rail is composed of 2 parts which have a central 300mm long section of the dovetail. I will leave a 5mm gap to allow compression

The sliding dovetails have very little play in them

Each rail was then mortised into the leg

I have not glued them up yet but here are the four mortise and tenon joints dry-jointed

Then there is a central stretcher to join these two pairs of legs / rails

I am still concerned about the stability but its quite chunky - the legs are 70mm square and the rails 60x75 overall
Comments / criticism always welcome
Thanks for looking
Mark

 

[Wizard9999]

Very nice progress, walnut is one of my favourite timbers so please keep the WIP pictures coming!

Terry.

 

[custard]

Nice joinery Gasman.

 

[thetyreman]

looking good so far

 

[Froggy]

Looking forward to seeing the rest.

 

[andychip38]

Looking great .think I want my walnut back