Wagtails/parting slips

[RogerS]

For those of you who make sash windows, how long do you make them ?

TIA

 

[Jacob]

Never bother. Or bothered - I don't do sashes any more.
Reason being they work perfectly well without them. If they are actually needed to separate weights from coming into contact then eventually they will get dislodged and jam up the whole works.
They crop up in text books a lot.

 

[RogerS]

Not really helpful, Jacob.

 

[Jacob]

Well if you have to put them in they need to reach say 3/4 of the way down the weight when it's at the bottom of the box - so they won't pick it up on the way up.

 

[RogerS]

Many thanks, Jacob,
That's what I thought.

 

[AndyT]

I don't have Jacob's experience of making the things, but I do have a copy of the old Woodworker Handbook on window making. The anonymous author has strong views on the right and wrong ways of making windows and is pretty blunt about them.
He says that the dividing tongues "should be long enough to reach to within 3 or 4 inches of the bottom of the pocket-pieces - not longer, or they will be in the way when inserting the weights; and not shorter, or there is a risk of the weights getting under them and jamming."

 

[bugbear]

Never bother. Or bothered - I don't do sashes any more.
Reason being they work perfectly well without them. If they are actually needed to separate weights from coming into contact then eventually they will get dislodged and jam up the whole works.
They crop up in text books a lot.

Did you find them in old sashes?

BugBear

 

[Mike Jordan]

I believe the Scottish box windows dispense with the parting slips and fit a sloping top edge to the weights, presumably to prevent any conflict between weights. I wouldn't anticipate any problems with the original cast iron weights, all the ones I have seen are well rounded at the ends. The more modern square section lead weights have flat ends and might cause problems.

 

[RogerS]

That's what I thought.

In other words ...not like these

 

[Jacob]

Never bother. Or bothered - I don't do sashes any more.
Reason being they work perfectly well without them. If they are actually needed to separate weights from coming into contact then eventually they will get dislodged and jam up the whole works.
They crop up in text books a lot.

Did you find them in old sashes?

BugBear

No. They are a text book thing.

 

[Jacob]

I believe the Scottish box windows dispense with the parting slips and fit a sloping top edge to the weights, presumably to prevent any conflict between weights. I wouldn't anticipate any problems with the original cast iron weights, all the ones I have seen are well rounded at the ends. The more modern square section lead weights have flat ends and might cause problems.

Lead is easy to shape so anybody fitting them with square ends is just being lazy.
Lead preceded cast iron. Early ones were quite shapely. I wish I'd taken more photos!

 

[AndyT]

Just as a data point - our current Bristol house (1897) doesn't have them. A previous house in Bristol, of similar date did, but they were weedy bits of riven lath, only about half the depth of the sash box, serving no useful purpose, so I removed them.

If you raise or lower a sash you can sometimes get one pair of weights to knock the others and ring like bells. If that bothers you, fit some.

 

[ColeyS1]

I usually fit them. Couple rips of 6mm ply with a wire nail going through the top to keep it in place. I usually make them full height.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[richarnold]

This is intresting. I can only conclude that this perhaps a regional thing, as I have never seen a box sash without wagtails in our area (Northants / Leicestershire 18th 19th and 20th century examples)I have recently examined some in Somerset that had them fitted (18th century ), and from memory all the examples in the Brooking collection that I looked at had them. We always fit them , proberbly jut because thats what the old timers tought me. I was tought to finish them about 2 or 3 inches short of the bottom of the box.
.

 

[RogerS]

Never bother. Or bothered - I don't do sashes any more.
Reason being they work perfectly well without them. If they are actually needed to separate weights from coming into contact then eventually they will get dislodged and jam up the whole works.
They crop up in text books a lot.

Did you find them in old sashes?

BugBear

Yes. Many times.

 

[bugbear]

Never bother. Or bothered - I don't do sashes any more.
Reason being they work perfectly well without them. If they are actually needed to separate weights from coming into contact then eventually they will get dislodged and jam up the whole works.
They crop up in text books a lot.

Did you find them in old sashes?

BugBear

No. They are a text book thing.

How wide an area did you cover? I'm wondering if there's a regional component.

EDIT: I posted this question before I saw Richard Arnold's interesting post.

BugBear

 

[RogerS]

Did you find them in old sashes?

BugBear

No. They are a text book thing.

How wide an area did you cover? I'm wondering if there's a regional component.

EDIT: I posted this question before I saw Richard Arnold's interesting post.

BugBear

Not sure why you feel the need for the embarrassed emoticon. You asked a very fair question.

It would appear that wagtails are most definitely NOT a 'text book thing'.

 

[oakfield]

i work on a lot of sash windows in Sussex and I would say that about 40% of them have them fitted

 

[Jacob]

I did encounter them but in later, end of era, windows (i.e. approx 1890 - 1920). Often broken and jamming up the works. Never in earlier windows. Maybe they'd failed and been removed? I should have looked more closely!
I guess riven laths as per AndyTs description would last longer but some were sawn and would break more easily.
The poshest windows I did were in a big house in County Mayo. They were huge, ex 2 1/2" stuff with lots of interesting details and improvements on what I was used to. No wagtails.
The biggest improvement they had was a reduced bottom cill - it was as per standard but the whole front half missing so that the bottom sash front edge projected slightly beyond the front edge of the cill, which is a brilliant weathering detail - the cill being the most vulnerable part. But maybe that's a regional detail too? Sash pockets were in the back lining instead of the pulley stile which is also a better detail in terms of weathering.

 

[AndyT]

Cills are definitely regionally different. Most 18th century sash windows in Bath close straight onto stone, with no bottom timber cill. But how many tourists notice such an amazing fact?!