Viceless workholding

[gold_bantam]

Hi all,

I've reached a crucial stage in my workbench build. I was originally planning to put on a QR Record 52 1/2 (which I already have). However, I recently watched Mike Siemsen's viceless workholding video and was really amazed at how versatile a bench can be without a vice. I know from my previous benches how annoying some dimensions of wood can be when you only have a vice but no other methods of workholding like holdfasts and dog holes etc. And Mike's demo made me think why not get rid of the vice altogether. I want to know if anyone here uses viceless benches or if I'd be a fool to not fit the vice. One other option would be to fit the vice on the other side and end of the bench in case I need it, but I won't necessarily have a workspace with walk-around access to the bench in the future. Cheers

 

[Fitzroy]

I did not have a vice for the first 5 yrs of my woodworking journey and got by with clamps onto the bench, screws for planing stops, doe’s legs to fixed blocks etc. It was fine, I managed, what’s all the fuss about!

I built a bench last year with a leg vice and all I can say is I will never, ever, for all the tea in china, go back to not having one!

Fitz.

 

[Spectric]

and was really amazed at how versatile a bench can be without a vice.

What type of woodwork do you do ?

I think that if you are a handtool type woodworker then a big heavy workbench and vice is the way to go but I am not and use a combination of 20mm holes in a worktop for mostly alignment purposes but now have some Bessey clamps BESSEY Horizontal Pull-Down Clamp WNS-SET-MFT - (2 IN A PACK) which are handy to hold something and keep the top of the workpiece completely clear to work on and I have the micro jig dovetail slots between my 20 mm holes which do most of my clamping MATCHFIT Woodworking Jig and Fixture System | #1 Best-Seller in Jigs and Fixtures.

With this system you will need to keep everything clean as debris in the grooves or 20mm holes can be a problem.

 

[mwinfrance]

Strikes me as rather like saying that because you can do some things "one handed" that you'll tie the other hand behind your back. It isn't like you have to use the vice just because you fitted it, but it is much easier to fit it at the beginning than to retro fit it later.

 

[Orraloon]

Mike Siemsen's video is a must watch for anyone setting out to build a bench. It shows what can be done , is very simple and low cost. Also shows that the vice is not the only way to go. I use most of what Mr Siemsen has on that bench and it's all very handy but I would not be without a vice either. As you already have a vice it would be a shame not to use it as well as the other holding options. After all a bench is a good solid platform to work wood on with holding options. More the better is how I see it.
Regards
John

 

[Ttrees]

I only recently installed a vise on my bench as my other vise was rigged up on the drill, and was happy enough to get by with those large f clamps in liddles, works well if you've not got an apron,
and say 9" of space below for the handle.
I put it at the back of my floating top bench, which also has retractable casters, so I can use both sides of the bench easily.
Will have to move it, as I don't use it much, and it interferes with the use of a sliding angle poise lamp where it is, though I may as well try rotating the top and seeing how it is on the front RHS, and if I don't like it, it'll go on either end instead.

Made a new planing stop cleat up for things as they are now, with three 17mm (IIRC) dowels
(2 holes already there in the top, not knowing the bits needed were in the following week in the middle isle, I would'a waited and made a nicer job of it)
I have differing holes on the other end, skimpy 10mm or something, which are a pain to remove it if necessary, since planed it down to the same height as the ply offcut.

Why am I giving you my life story, you may ask...
It's because all those things are relevant to me working as such.

The cleat for a stop, and not just a wide dog, is all I use for planing,
as I have the same planing methodology as St.Charlesworth.
That's planing in rows if you will, no bad habits like cross grain planing perpendicular and spelching off edges thus reducing usable width, nor planing things which will deflect like a
diving board in the vise, and setting too deep a cut just to get the plane to cut.

so I never need anything to brace against the edge of the work for planing faces or edges.
I do however plane diagonally, so this is where the cleat comes into it's own.
The cleat which is as wide as the top also lends itself to using a plank or whatnot,
to use as a stop also, for when you wish to work on one end, or wherever.

The angle poise lamp is the bees knees for everything, which needs to be easily movable,
as it's a tool like everything else, and as such won't be used as effectively if it's not so.

Just my 2cents on doing things without a permanent vise,
those parkie f clamps are about a tenner, much less effort than the smaller ones.

All the best
Tom

 

[tibi]

In a self help world, you need to BELIEVE that the workpiece will not move and it will come through even without any workholding device

 

[TheUnicorn]

I have a small assembly bench, which I can mount a small metalworking vice in, I also use a bench bull / mule which allows me to clamp in numerious ways / heights. its not perfect, but the bench bull is really helpful to add functionality

 

[Spectric]

It isn't like you have to use the vice just because you fitted it, but it is much easier to fit it at the beginning than to retro fit it later.

But they can get in the way and be more of a nuisance with some types of bench. For a vice to be really useful it needs to be attached to a heavy solid bench which is ok unless you are looking at a more modular design where it might also include the mitre saw like with the Paulk design or a router like Denis from hooked on wood. I use a Worx superjaws if I need a vice which can be easily stored out of the way until you have that job you need more hands.

 

[Jacob]

Hi all,

I've reached a crucial stage in my workbench build. I was originally planning to put on a QR Record 52 1/2 (which I already have). However, I recently watched Mike Siemsen's viceless workholding video and was really amazed at how versatile a bench can be without a vice.

But hugely more versatile with a vice! That's why 99%+ woodworkers use them.

I know from my previous benches how annoying some dimensions of wood can be when you only have a vice but no other methods of workholding like holdfasts and dog holes etc. And Mike's demo made me think why not get rid of the vice altogether. I want to know if anyone here uses viceless benches or if I'd be a fool to not fit the vice. One other option would be to fit the vice on the other side and end of the bench in case I need it, but I won't necessarily have a workspace with walk-around access to the bench in the future. Cheers

Yes you could work without a vice to some extent but why create difficulties for yourself, unless you are trying to prove something?
You could probably do something even without a bench!

 

[ColinDeVelen]

I agree with most everyone here. Having one and not mounting it seems rather pointless. They are useful, even if it's for helping to hold the fixtures you see 'no vise' users holding with hold fasts. You do have choices where and how to mount it, and it would be those that you should look at. I have a bench that is basically an 'english joiners' style, with two splits in the top (I built it in a hurry and didn't have enough wood to make it a single split) which are very useful for clamping. I mounted my vise at one end of the bench top, with extra wide faces, so the face extends to either side of the bench. Again, very useful. But my bench is in the middle of the work shop, and I can walk all the way around, and indeed use the non vise end if it suits the work better. That particular style of bench that I have would probably be a lot less useful to me if it was nestled in a corner, and I only had access to one side and one end. So a bit depends on how you will site the bench.

 

[Jacob]

I agree with most everyone here. Having one and not mounting it seems rather pointless. They are useful, even if it's for helping to hold the fixtures you see 'no vise' users holding with hold fasts. You do have choices where and how to mount it, and it would be those that you should look at. I have a bench that is basically an 'english joiners' style, with two splits in the top (I built it in a hurry and didn't have enough wood to make it a single split) which are very useful for clamping. I mounted my vise at one end of the bench top, with extra wide faces, so the face extends to either side of the bench. Again, very useful. But my bench is in the middle of the work shop, and I can walk all the way around, and indeed use the non vise end if it suits the work better. That particular style of bench that I have would probably be a lot less useful to me if it was nestled in a corner, and I only had access to one side and one end. So a bit depends on how you will site the bench.

The very common trad British bench is one sided and good for small spaces. Two sided found in bigger workshops, schools etc. with vice both sides.
Normally most of the work goes on only on the front "beam", in fact an even simpler trad bench design is often found with just one large timber, on legs, like a saw stool.

 

[mwinfrance]

Tom, tell your dog ,
that I said to give him /her a biscuit, and do so. Random unexpected food treats are good for animals, and the giving of them and the pleasure we can see that gives them, is good for us.
Mike

 

[Jacob]

......

The angle poise lamp is the bees knees for everything, which needs to be easily movable,
as it's a tool like everything else, and as such won't be used as effectively if it's not so.
......

I thought so too until I discovered head torches, which you don't have to move, as, amazingly, they always point exactly in the same direction as you eyes! Must be AI!
Seriously though they really help especially with poor eyesight and bad lighting. Anglepoise too narrow and too stationary beam

 

[gold_bantam]

Thank you everyone. It's really interesting hearing your experiences and workholding solutions. I will definitely fit the vice then in the primary work position. I realised that with the vice there, I still have the option to use all the other methods in Mike Siemsen's video, except for the crochet for edge planing, which the vice will excel at anyway. And of course it will be much easier to use for the joinery than positioning and probably repositioning pieces for sawing tenons etc. I am planning to get some holdfasts later on for working on the bench top still. Even though a well known woodworker says that you can chop mortices well in these big vices (and I do believe him), it feels much better for me doing it directly over the bench leg so the holdfasts will be important for that I think.

 

[mwinfrance]

For a vice to be really useful it needs to be attached to a heavy solid bench

I've got one ( which like my bench grinders and many other tools ) is attached to a piece of plywood, which is clamped to the bench when I need it , and lives on a shelf when I don't. My bench isn't just used for woodwork, some things the vice would get in the way, or get damaged. I have more than one vice, for metal and wood.There is one ( homemade version ) attached permanently right across one end of the bench.need to get a worx type thing, or make one as they are a bit small for my use.

 

[Ollie78]

I currently don`t have a big proper bench with a vice, due mostly to lack of space. I have the vice from my old bench ready to go but need to build a mini bench for it.
I manage fine and you find all sorts of ways to do without a vice but sometimes I do wish I had one. Given the opportunity its a no brainer to have a sturdy vice.

My viceless workholding tip is masking tape and super glue, remarkably strong and quick and easy.

Ollie

 

[Spectric]

I think the vice is essential in metalwork but there are so many other options in woodworking, maybe because metal is better behaved than wood.

 

[Ttrees]

@mwinfrance I'll mention yourself if I can sneek something outta the fridge.!

I thought so too until I discovered head torches, which you don't have to move, as, amazingly, they always point exactly in the same direction as you eyes! Must be AI!
Seriously though they really help especially with poor eyesight and bad lighting. Anglepoise too narrow and too stationary beam

Perhaps you should give your stationary angle poise lamp another chance,

Some other tips I've noted whilst using these lamps, make the difference between having a
proper setup which can be effortlessly moved with two fingers where you wish,
or being just short of being useful, not getting it on the exact spot is no good atall really.

If you think it may be good enough without properly getting used to lighting where you want,
then your standards of adequate lighting likely needs to be re-evaluated.

Anyhow, here's some other tips for one who wishes to get on with these lamps.

To the casual observer, this setup for the drill may appear to be adequate,
Nah, these lamps don't work well whatsoever when mounted at this height.

Likewise, it's just about useful for some jobs when too far away, like it needs to be ATM with the vise on the end there.
Something just about useful sometimes is just an nuisance, as below..

My floating benchtop is 18" and works well for the lamp...

Even in cramped situations, should you spot the little hot rodding goin on

Lighting exactly where you need it, I wouldn't settle for less.

Tom

 

[ColinDeVelen]

Thank you everyone. It's really interesting hearing your experiences and workholding solutions. I will definitely fit the vice then in the primary work position. I realised that with the vice there, I still have the option to use all the other methods in Mike Siemsen's video, except for the crochet for edge planing, which the vice will excel at anyway. And of course it will be much easier to use for the joinery than positioning and probably repositioning pieces for sawing tenons etc. I am planning to get some holdfasts later on for working on the bench top still. Even though a well known woodworker says that you can chop mortices well in these big vices (and I do believe him), it feels much better for me doing it directly over the bench leg so the holdfasts will be important for that I think.

I made wooden hold fasts out of scrap, they work perfectly well, so don't feel you need to buy the metal ones.