Veritas PMV-II Plane Blades

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It's such a brilliant piece of industrial design. Timeless. Like the chair you're reproducing. It's like asking for empirical evidence that a Van Gogh is a masterpiece. Do you have any empirical evidence that Wegner's The Chair by Golly really isn't THE CHAIR?

Everything about the Bailey was predicated on a much thinner plane iron than was being used at the time.

Otherwise, one gets the feeling that Lee Valley must be about to introduce a line of really thick plane irons (or thicker than they currently produce) and this is the start of the campaign to soften up the beachhead for the full-scale internet marketing blitz and "review" lollapalooza to come.

"Hey, I helped design it (we're told) it's only fitting that I should review it against its competition too." Yeah right, on the planet Biased a few solar systems from ours..

Paul Sellers pleads the case, though he is not in possession of a secret treasure trove of Bailey's letters and notebooks:

Leonard Bailey – Designer, tool maker, inventor and entrepreneur.

Let me ask you a question. In the 1850’s 99% of the hundreds of thousands of woodworkers were using wooden bodied planes with thick irons which tapered from around5/32” thick to 1/8”. Because the irons were wedged into the body of the plane they needed something that would lock the position of the iron. That way, should fractional slippage take place, the iron wedged between the wooden wedge and the plane body to become immoveable. These irons were hammer forged by drop hammers and then ground to dimension. Leonard Bailey, one of the brilliant woodworking tool designers of the day and a cabinet maker to boot, decided to make a thin iron for his newly invented Bailey-pattern plane. Throughout the ensuing decades, 130 years to be close to precise, no one used a thicker iron. Why? Well it’s dead simple and it wasn’t because they were thick. Bailey’s newly invented thin irons actually worked and worked exceptionally well. They still do and no one can convince me that Leonard Bailey was a dummy when his planes remained virtually unchanged throughout one and a half centuries. No one can convince me that he just missed it and no one can convince me that there was in any way a shortfall in the invention. He was designing a whole plane and he was going against the traditions of the age. He faced great opposition, but Stanley Rule and Level stuck behind him not because they were trying to create a fashionable trend like so many mass makers of tools. No, he invented a plane with thin irons for a strategic reason, stuck to his guns and created an affordable plane. How amazing is that.

There is no doubt that the Bailey pattern plane was a well designed fit-for-purpose product and it is amazing that no one has really bettered it or come up with something different that matched its quality or bettered it. If everyone would readjust their thinking even just a little and look with serious consideration at the Leonard Bailey’s Bailey-pattern plane and then too give credit to the thousands upon thousands of ordinary woodworkers who used them for all those decades without change we would discover a plane of real value and substance. It was indeed a plane engineered to last, yet with the lightweight versatility of a bantamweight boxer.
 
That is a weak effort by your standards, Charles. Not enough deflection. Throw in a few accusations of biased reviews or paid adverts, or something along those lines. You usually do.

After all that is said, you and Jacob still need to show us evidence that thin Stanley blades are the equivalent, or better, than thick plane blades, both in endurance and in performance. Either put up or ....

Waiting ... :roll:

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
That is a weak effort by your standards, Charles. Not enough deflection. Throw in a few accusations of biased reviews or paid adverts, or something along those lines. You usually do.

After all that is said, you and Jacob still need to show us evidence that thin Stanley blades are the equivalent, or better, than thick plane blades, both in endurance and in performance. Either put up or ....

Waiting ... :roll:

Regards from Perth

Derek

Evidence, like the little kangaroo court/Kabuki theatre totally rigged "reviews" you have a habit of posting?

Go ahead and spill the beans Derek, we know it must be coming. When is Lee Valley going to make the announcement?

You own a Bailey pattern plane (probably several). You recently posted pictures of it post-refurb I think. Go use it. It won't chatter, it'll do anything any other plane around will do. If it won't, the problem likely is not with the plane.
 
Real research and real results Charles, not innuendo.

Still waiting .... :-"

Regards from Perth

Derek

Mail me a Veritas plane and I'll be happy to do a comparison. I'll even involve other woodworkers to assure objectivity and honesty.

No company men, 'design consultants,' magazine editors, tool sellers -- nobody with any connections just people who work wood.

So, you going to tell us when the new LV irons will be out? If you tell me now, I'll wait and review one vs. a thin Stanley iron.
 
...you and Jacob still need to show us evidence that thin Stanley blades are the equivalent, or better, than thick plane blades, both in endurance and in performance. Either put up or ....

Waiting ... :roll:

Regards from Perth

Derek
One large part of the evidence is the hugely favourable reception given to the Stanley/Bailey design - millions of them bought and used to the almost total exclusion of any other designs.
The amateur woodwork fashion for thick blades is very recent - nobody gave it a thought in the previous 100 or so years and it's based on lack of appreciation of the Bailey design. Neither Bailey nor Stanley, nor all their designers and makers following , nor all the millions of users, though to put thicker blades in their planes. Stupid idea - completely missing the point!
A lot of people can tell you of the excellent performance they get from thin blades - it crops up here often and is certainly my experience.
That they are easier to sharpen is self evident.
Endurance no different (AOTBE) an edge is an edge and needs resharpening according to how much work is done, nothing to do with thickness.
Basically a thin blade properly set up in a good Stanley/Bailey plane is equivalent to a thicker blade. This is the whole point of the design. Putting a thicker blade into the Bailey design is pointless as the cap iron then has no function except as chip breaker - it's not needed as a hold down and a thick blade takes longer to sharpen.
Simple stuff really!
 
Jacob":2242823p said:
...you and Jacob still need to show us evidence that thin Stanley blades are the equivalent, or better, than thick plane blades, both in endurance and in performance. Either put up or ....

Waiting ... :roll:

Regards from Perth

Derek
One large part of the evidence is the hugely favourable reception given to the Stanley/Bailey design - millions of them bought and used to the almost total exclusion of any other designs.
The amateur woodwork fashion for thick blades is very recent - nobody gave it a thought in the previous 100 or so years.
A lot of people can tell you of the excellent performance they get from thin blades - it crops up here often and is certainly my experience.
That they are easier to sharpen is self evident.
Endurance no different (AOTBE) an edge is an edge and needs resharpening according to how much work is done, nothing to do with thickness.
Basically a thin blade properly set up in a good Stanley/Bailey plane is equivalent to a thicker blade. This is the whole point of the design. Putting a thicker blade into the Bailey design is pointless as the cap iron then has no function except as chip breaker - it's not needed as a hold down and a thick blade takes longer to sharpen.
Simple stuff really!

One wonders what point Derek is trying to make with insinuating a thick iron into a Bailey-type plane. There are an abundance of vintage wooden planes available with thick irons from any number of places - auction sites, old tool dealers, etc.

Any assertion that Bailey's thin iron was a design flaw, unintentional afterthought, or whatever it is he is claiming is obviously ridiculous. I actually have more respect for the man's intelligence to believe he doesn't think they work. He owns these kinds of planes after all. There's something else afoot.

As you've pointed out, all you need is the edge. The planes holds thin irons beautifully. Perhaps it is their ability to be rapidly honed that irritates Derek. This implies that much less frou-frou is needed with respect to one's sharpening set up.
 
Hi Jacob

Hearsay is not evidence. There may be millions satisfied by their Stanley plane blades, but that does not constitute evidence that they are better than other plane blades. Find some research that directly compares like for like. Then you can make a statement that others will respect.

Charles, buy your own plane blades, if this it so important to you to debunk the many positive findings conducted on the PMV-11 blades. I know you have a PMV-11 chisel given to you by Lee Valley. Use it to form the basis of a research project. Show us how it is done. Present methodology that is able to be replicated by others (i.e. the scientific method), and produce the results that demonstrate why you continue to denigrate this steel - you are the only one I know who does so (and I wonder what that says?).

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Hello,

There is more to industrial design than just the product being made. Much, and often to a greater extent, it is how it is made, too. Bailey blades are totally made from tool steel, which makes it a simple and cheap process, because there is no forge welding, heavy grinding etc. BUT tool steel is expensive, so keeping the iron thin, mitigates this and makes it easier to cut the blanks, tool steel being tough and all. Like everything in this world, it is a balance of compromise. Bailey blades are economical to make and work well enough for mild mannered timbers. Any thinner, they would be more economical, but work less well or not at all. Thicker, they would incur manufacturing penalties that would increase the cost, though work better. It was a balance, which works for most applications. People who demand/require better performance, due to the type of work they do, can find the compromise lets them down and after market solutions, or better planes are available. It is clear that the demand for these indicates that improvements can be made and are necessary for many. I find that planing softwood and mild timber, the aim of the Bailey design, standard planes are fine. (Though the steel of moder Bailey blades is not good) But I seldom plane softwood and often plane much more demanding timber. The difference between a thicker ironed plane and a standard one, in these circumstances is remarkable. Once my planes have the thick iron, I do not see the point in faffing around with anything else.

BTW Paul Sellers has a rack full of Vertas planes. It seems he preaches one thing and does something entirely different.

Mike.
 
Hi Jacob

Hearsay is not evidence. There may be millions satisfied by their Stanley plane blades, but that does not constitute evidence that they are better than other plane blades.
Oh yes it does! Or are they all mad? (i.e. the plane design making the thin blade as good as a thick one and more usable - not a better blade as such.)
 
Hi Jacob

Hearsay is not evidence. There may be millions satisfied by their Stanley plane blades, but that does not constitute evidence that they are better than other plane blades. Find some research that directly compares like for like. Then you can make a statement that others will respect.

Charles, buy your own plane blades, if this it so important to you to debunk the many positive findings conducted on the PMV-11 blades. I know you have a PMV-11 chisel given to you by Lee Valley. Use it to form the basis of a research project. Show us how it is done. Present methodology that is able to be replicated by others (i.e. the scientific method), and produce the results that demonstrate why you continue to denigrate this steel - you are the only one I know who does so (and I wonder what that says?).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Rob Lee did graciously say that I could keep the chisel he sent for me to demo; I think that this is his standard policy. However, I did not keep the chisel. I returned it with the waterstone he loaned me to hone it with.

As I've said before, I lowered the grind of the chisel and found that the edge very slightly outlasted a Marples Blue Chip I used for comparison. Maybe I hit the Blue Chip jackpot and got a batch of really good ones. I don't know. But that was my honest impression.

I have not demo'd a plane iron from LV.

I have used a HSS plane iron and I lost track of how long the edge lasted. Record and Marples used to sell these into the Australian and New Zealand market. Kunz still make them as replacements, FWIW. In the end, I don't care for sharpening HSS unless I have to - some turning tools are very hard to find in anything but.

I can think of no one but you who would call an over 100 year history and millions of satisfied users/planes sold "hearsay."
 
hear·say (hîrs)
n.
1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.
2. Law Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Hello,

At one time, every human being on the planet and all those preceding them, believed the earth was flat. Then one Greek bloke realised evidentially it wasn't. But still the world population continued to believe it was flat, for centuries later. There is no evidence, nor proof by consensus of opinion.

Mike.
 
hear·say (hîrs)
n.
1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.
2. Law Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.

Regards from Perth

Derek

We're off to a 4th of July picnic but I'll leave you with two thoughts:

1) In a legal sense (since you invoked it), and I say this quite confidently, you'd tickle your opponent in court to death by calling anything having to do with the Bailey design, its utility, its commercial success, anything at all -- 'hearsay.' It's laughable. You're out of your element here, Derek.

2) The Sellers quote in my post above.

Why don't you locate an old Record HSS cutter and compare it to PMVII? It might be fun. You seem to be itching to do a review. Throw a current Kunz HSS in for good measure.

I think Ward and Payne even made a chisel tipped in HSS at one time. I could be wrong on the manufacturer but I do know that a British concern did at one time.
 
Charles, enjoy your 4th of July picnic. We'll spar more another time. (You will need to find a better comeback than that last one, however).

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Whether this new steel is anything special or not, I truly have no idea. I would like to
find out of course. So having people report their experiences here is only a good thing.

Furthermore I would expect from the woodworking gentleman here to behave more accordingly.
It's woodworking, we are not going to war. At times it seems that any potential progress makes certain
woodworkers on this forum feel threatened and they will immediately object to it. As if this progress will
dimish the status of their tools and therefore them as a woodworker. I find it weird to be honest. If you
are fine using the stuff you do, then what is the problem?

Of course I respect people here who are protecting new woodworkers from buying unnecessary stuff.
=================================================================

It seems to me that a certain person(we all know who) on this forum is always objecting
to any ''progress''. Everything from the past is good and anything new is not needed.

-Don't use a ruler for the ruler trick, just slightly lift the back of the blade
-Don't use a jig, not needed
-Don't worry about flattening your stones, just work the whole stone
-Don't bother with thicker irons, the thin ones are good enough
-Don't buy a thick cap iron, the bailey standard one is good enough.
.....................

I have to say, that while I respect every opinion, my personal opinion is that this person
is *deleted, top harsh and perhaps incorrect* and just trolling. I hope the forum owner will take some action because it is
at times really annoying.

Ali
 
Ali as a fellow reader of posts here it's a really tough call and difficult to know where to draw the line. There is at times a bit too much extra emotion added to the postings. Both sides in whichever debate defend their postions with a great deal of gusto. After being on this forum for about a year I find myself used to it. Sometimes I've reacted foolishly and not kept things in perspective, we're only human after all! I would also I think be reluctant to see it end. My two peneth would be to make sure personal attacks are not welcome here and are policed appropriately but passionate debate on topics people have experience and knowledge of should always be welcome, even if they clash head on sometimes. Like I said, it's hard to know where to draw the line.
 
ali27":1sdr5l95 said:
........
-Don't use a ruler for the ruler trick, just slightly lift the back of the blade
-Don't use a jig, not needed
-Don't worry about flattening your stones, just work the whole stone
-Don't bother with thicker irons, the thin ones are good enough
-Don't buy a thick cap iron, the bailey standard one is good enough.....
Yes I think that'll do for starters, I could add a few more things to the list! NB I do rate the stayset cap iron as an option. Not essential but is effective if you have a problem with cap irons.
I don't know why you find it annoying - the intention is to be helpful, or at least, discursive.
It certainly helped me - I wasted a lot of time (and some money) with "the new woodworking" until I started getting back to basics. I personally am not annoyed by, say, the flattening craze, but I don't have to agree with it do I?
There is a lot of misunderstanding around - take that recent spat about "camber" - it seemed to me that a few people had no idea how or why it works (i.e. crudely - that a deeper/narrower scoop takes more material away for same effort) so surely it is helpful to talk about these things whether or not you agree with anything in the end.
It's called "discussion" in the grown up world.
 
Ali,

I understand where you are coming from, but it is worth remembering that Jacob also brings with him a wealth of experience. I for one have learned a great deal from some of his posts and others have encouraged me to examine my own opinions in a fresh light.

His pyrrhonic approach to new ideas may not be to everyone's taste, but it contributes enormously to the overall balance of the community. Once you learn to see beyond his sometimes astringent tone, you will find a dry, intelligent and challenging debating partner.

Who knows, in a few years time you might find yourself grumpily espousing the proven reliability of traditional PMV11 blades over their new fangled counterparts!
 
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