Veneering / Curved Work - HOW THE VICTORIANS DID IT

[rhrwilliams]

Hi all, I usually post on woodwork, but I sometimes lurk here too ----there are a lot of traditional woodwork enthusiasts like myself so I have directed this question here.

I have an upcoming project that involves a small amount of curved work and having never done this type of thing before, I have been looking at a few pieces of Victorian furniture and I have a number of questions about how they did it !

I have a nice Georgian chest of draws with a curved front. The draw appears to be hardwood, BUT is also veneered with another more exotic hardwood. Why did they veneer it if it was hardwood anyway, what is the advantage to this , and how on earth did they cut a veneer that is about 5mm - 8mm thick ?

I was looking online and veneers you can buy now are like paper, not the veneers of old which appear to be thicker.

Can anyone give me any info or point me in the right direction on how they used to cut veneers and glue them ? It was suggested to me by a friend they were riven with a large knife blade (like a wide throw) but I cant see how this would work.

Anyone done a project like this I can look at ?

Lastly - look at the attached picture of the bath surround - do you think this is veneered ? Or did they just plane down to a curve ?

https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/324751823101194008/

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Modern commercial veneer is cut with a wide knife, but the thick stuff was sawn. It can be done with hand tools, a frame saw for instance, though there were industrial saws in the Victorian era that could saw veneer.

I bandsaw cut some veneers from solid if I have a particularly nice plank that needs to be strerched a bit, of need to keep the project all from one tree. Mixing commercial veneers will look odd. I bandsaw veneers at about 2 mm or a bit thinner, though obiously I can cut any thickness.

Veneering thin veneer on curves is reasonably easy with hot hide glue, or sand boxes with sand pressed into the shape of the curve and then used as a form.

I suggest the bath was largely sawn from solid, the frames almost definitely and the panels likely too though could have been veneered up.

Mahogany in those days was plentiful and came in large sections, it was less work to cut it from large chunks than try to save material an laminate, veneer and generally mess about.

Mike.

 

[custard]

The Victorians cut their thick veneers the same way I cut my thick veneers, with a saw. In my case it's a bandsaw, but go back before the Victorians to the Georgians and it could well have been a handsaw.

If you're veneering onto a solid wood ground then your veneer can be any thickness you like, plus you don't need a backing veneer, the entire glued unit will shrink and expand together.

But if you're gluing a thick saw cut veneer onto MDF or ply you can't really go much thicker than 1.5mm (some very experienced craftsmen say 1.2mm or even 1.0mm is the upper limit) because otherwise the bottom, glued face of the veneer will be held fast, but the top, show face will try and shrink, which opens up micro fissures in the show surface. Plus you absolutely need a backing veneer.

 

[rhrwilliams]

Thank you for the replies. (and very quick too!)

So lets say you wanted to make a curved panel door, and you didn't want to do it out of solid stock.

You could make it out of plywood using a jig to laminate the sections. You would then cut 1-2mm thick veneers out of the same wood. I can see how these would then be laminated to the door frame - but how would you join the veneers to make a piece big enough to laminate the panel ? And how would you get all the bandsaw marks out ?

Custard / Mike - have you done any WIP's I can look at ? Or ones anyone else has done ?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I remember being told at school in 1970 that there were firms re converting veneer stripped from antiques and especially pianos, as they could get sometimes several sheets to one sawn - it had become worthwhile that long ago.

 

[custard]

Anyone done a project like this I can look at ?

I've done a few projects that involved veneering curved surfaces,

It's not something you want to rush into unless you've got a fair amount of cabinet making experience under you belt. At Parnham I believe they used to teach a rule of thumb for costing furniture, one curved face and the build time is x3 what a normal rectilinear piece would be, two curved faces and it's x10. That fits very well with my own experience. In fact once you get into curved work you can easily spend longer just making the jigs and fixtures dedicated to that one piece than you'd take building an entire rectilinear equivalent.

 

[custard]

I remember being told at school in 1970 that there were firms re converting veneer stripped from antiques and especially pianos, as they could get sometimes several sheets to one sawn - it had become worthwhile that long ago.

Still happens today Phil. Upstairs at the veneer wholesalers Capital Crispin is where they keep their precious treasure, and in amongst the Amboyna and Snakewood they have saw cut veneers of Cuban Mahogany and Rio Rosewood that still show the outline of the demi-lune and other antique furniture that they were cut from!

 

[AndyT]

There's a lot of detail about veneer sawing in Holtzappfel's multi volume book on Turning, in Volume 3 which is a survey of tools. You should be able to find it in the Free Books sticky, but I'll check a reference later if you want.

From memory, there's a lot about improvements in thin rotary saws, with comparison to the hand methods.

You could also have a look at the blog of W Patrick Edwards, an American craftsman who uses 18th or 19th century techniques.

 

[rhrwilliams]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i_NnPFUFTA Custard - This explains what you are saying I think ! I don't like american videos but this is interesting.

AndyT I will look for that now - Im a sucker for an old woodworking book ! I have lots and lots of old books about historical construction methods I use for work stuff and my book shelf is filling with woodwork ones now !

 

[rhrwilliams]

I cant find the book - can you post a link please ?

Good old Modern Practical Joinery has a section on Veneering too Ive been reading.

 

[AndyT]

Apologies - it's volume 2 you need. I think you will want to download the whole book and the other volumes - they are stuffed full of very detailed information not recorded elsewhere, not just about turning. Here's the start:

Go to https://archive.org/details/turningmechanica02holtuoft

to download - pdf is best.

For Patrick Edwards' blog - http://wpatrickedwards.blogspot.co.uk

There's a huge amount to read and admire there!

 

[rhrwilliams]

Thanks for that - Ive downloaded the book - but thats going to take some time to get through - it pretty damm technical. Just shows how much knowledge these guys of old had. Its amazing really

 

[woodbrains]

Thank you for the replies. (and very quick too!)

So lets say you wanted to make a curved panel door, and you didn't want to do it out of solid stock.

You could make it out of plywood using a jig to laminate the sections. You would then cut 1-2mm thick veneers out of the same wood. I can see how these would then be laminated to the door frame - but how would you join the veneers to make a piece big enough to laminate the panel ? And how would you get all the bandsaw marks out ?

Custard / Mike - have you done any WIP's I can look at ? Or ones anyone else has done ?

Hello,

You can't really make a curved panel out if plywood, unless the curve is extremely shallow, or the plywood is extremely thin. Plywood is made flat to stay flat, so trying to curve it is going against its nature. Aero ply comes in thicknesses of about 0,9 and 1,5 mm, of slight variations of that. You could laminate up that, but it becomes expensive if you need a bit of thickness. Hovever, bendy ply is designed to curve in one plane and can be got around 5 mm thick. Two or three layers of that with aero ply between each layer, makes rather ulikley, floppy material into a very stiff curved structure when glued up with cascamite or similar. Veneer onto that and you get a very good panel or curved carspcase side.

Mike.

 

[bugbear]

I don't like american videos

Wow. That's a pretty diverse field you're rejecting!

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

Another useful reference, for anyone who likes old books, is Modern Cabinetwork, by Wells and Hooper. Aimed at the professional, the chapter on veneering gives a decent summary of techniques, including the use of cauls and bags of hot sand for curved work. It's not strictly Victorian - this edition is 1910 - but I don't think there were sudden changes in technique when the old queen died...

Available to read online or download to a 21st century tablet,

http://www.archive.org/stream/moderncab ... 9/mode/2up

Also, looking at your pictures of the bath surround, I see they are of Lord Bute's bathroom at Cardiff Castle. I do recommend going and having a look at the original work there if you can. It's the perfect collision of virtually limitless wealth, an original designer (William Burges, steeped in the Gothic tradition) and the best materials and craftsmen available. Nothing was left to chance; everything was planned, considered and chosen as the best. There's a set of dining chairs (at least eight, maybe more) made of solid ebony. If solid walnut was wanted, solid walnut was used!

 

[rhrwilliams]

I think I typed that badly as I was not trying to infer I did not like americas. I should have said I usually do not like american videos on youtube, even that is a little broad brush admittedly A lot of american videos on youtube are guys in their "shop" using loads and loads of power tools etc. My interest is in Traditional joinery really. Clearly though that statement is a little broad and as demonstrated by Andy's blog he posted from Patrick Edwards there are some serious skills in USA. I like Roy underhill videos too....

I do plan to visit the castle. I want to make a bath surround from Sapele you see (in a good few months) and was using this an inspiration. There are plans for it in modern practical joinery. I am a while away from doing the curved panel though and was going to try something simple (simple as far as curved work goes) first.

Thanks for the other book. Im thinking of buying a tablet thing just to save books on. I saved about 6 when I went on holiday to read on my girlfriends tablet - was great.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

One word I've not yet seen in this thread is coopering. I suspect that - given the constraints of old-timey glue properties, and the effort involved in cutting laminae without machines - lamination is probably a more modern way to produce dimensionally stable curved structural panels. Where, in olden times, they decided not to cut from solid chunks, I expect their preference would have been to produce coopered panels/doors etc. and then to veneer them as appropriate. Of course, coopering has a long and proud history as a craft in its own right.

Here's someone doing it in the present: http://grantburger.com/blog-1/2016/12/6 ... gress-pics

Cheers W2S

 

[rhrwilliams]

Thanks for that - The work in that chaps portfolio is fantastic.