Ignoring the marketing issue of whether to sell a veneered wood rather than a solid wood product, what are the technical and time-to-make issues with working with veneered wood that don't arise with solid wood? I'm thinking a making "boxes" with dovetailed or finger joints. Using perhaps a Leigh dovetail jig, or Omec 650M. Thanks.
Veneered board: Is it more time consuming to work with, etc?
- Thread starter richard6299
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John15
Established Member
Surely the end grain of the substrate will show if making dovetails.
John
John
if you use dovetails or finger joints, then the ends of the board will show, which wont be veneered. I think that that idea is a non starter.
If you were batch producing using a (purchased) veneered board, then I would look at an alternative joint- something like the lock mitre joint. You could then set up the router table which takes a bit of time, but then cut joint after joint knowing that the board is a constant thickness. With solid, I find it difficult to get a constant thickness to within fractions of a mm. The joint is very sensitive to thickness.
Personally, I would get a book with some designs in, and start by looking at how each is constructed. Andrew Crawford and Peter Lloyd are 2 authors that I would suggest- there are others too. Look at what will work for batch production, and the design options for each.
Another idea is to make your boxes and veneer them yourself. You could then add solid parts where required- where cuts show and where you will separate the lid from the base. It will be cheaper than solid, more stable, and you can use woods that you could not readily source/afford in solid.
You are looking to make 20-30 a week. That is approx 1 1/2 hours per box, which I think is unachievable. you are also trying to compete with mass produced items at that volume- veneered board and volume, it would be you vs somebody with a cnc setup, and there is only one winner, assuming that you could sell them. If there was a market, then somebody would come in and take it from you. In any case, you need to start by making a box, and step it up from there. Enjoy it first, because making a large volume regularly is entirely different to having an interest/hobby.
If you were batch producing using a (purchased) veneered board, then I would look at an alternative joint- something like the lock mitre joint. You could then set up the router table which takes a bit of time, but then cut joint after joint knowing that the board is a constant thickness. With solid, I find it difficult to get a constant thickness to within fractions of a mm. The joint is very sensitive to thickness.
Personally, I would get a book with some designs in, and start by looking at how each is constructed. Andrew Crawford and Peter Lloyd are 2 authors that I would suggest- there are others too. Look at what will work for batch production, and the design options for each.
Another idea is to make your boxes and veneer them yourself. You could then add solid parts where required- where cuts show and where you will separate the lid from the base. It will be cheaper than solid, more stable, and you can use woods that you could not readily source/afford in solid.
You are looking to make 20-30 a week. That is approx 1 1/2 hours per box, which I think is unachievable. you are also trying to compete with mass produced items at that volume- veneered board and volume, it would be you vs somebody with a cnc setup, and there is only one winner, assuming that you could sell them. If there was a market, then somebody would come in and take it from you. In any case, you need to start by making a box, and step it up from there. Enjoy it first, because making a large volume regularly is entirely different to having an interest/hobby.
Okay. It looks like if I were to buy solid wood, that I'd have to have the supplier prepare the wood so it's thickness is constant, or I would have to do that preparation. True if I make dovetail joints.
It seems not a good idea to use veneered wood because the substrate will show at the ends with dovetail joints (can be avoided with another type of joint).
I could veneer after the box is made. I've not considered that option. I wonder if it would be expensive - not sure.
So: I can use veneered wood if I avoid dovetail/finger joints. And I can veneer after the box is made. Or use solid wood but ensure it's thickness is contant.
Possibly a fingered joint would be less problematic.
It seems not a good idea to use veneered wood because the substrate will show at the ends with dovetail joints (can be avoided with another type of joint).
I could veneer after the box is made. I've not considered that option. I wonder if it would be expensive - not sure.
So: I can use veneered wood if I avoid dovetail/finger joints. And I can veneer after the box is made. Or use solid wood but ensure it's thickness is contant.
Possibly a fingered joint would be less problematic.
I actually was wondering whether the dovetail or fingered joint was a selling point. If it were to be, I'd have to use solid wood.
But if solid wood would not sell for price reasons, I'd have to drop the idea of dovetail or fingered joints. It seems. If the idea was to show the joint without unsightly issues..
The work around would be a virtual dovetail. A pretence of a dovetail joint.
But if solid wood would not sell for price reasons, I'd have to drop the idea of dovetail or fingered joints. It seems. If the idea was to show the joint without unsightly issues..
The work around would be a virtual dovetail. A pretence of a dovetail joint.
this is your issue:
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/2214817 ... ref=market
£26.
possibly more what you are looking at https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/2646672 ... ref=market @ £55. this one has an tray inside, which would add to the labour- probably almost as much as the box itself.
These are just from a quick search
you could be very busy to make not much money at all.
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/2214817 ... ref=market
£26.
possibly more what you are looking at https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/2646672 ... ref=market @ £55. this one has an tray inside, which would add to the labour- probably almost as much as the box itself.
These are just from a quick search
you could be very busy to make not much money at all.
Glynne
Established Member
Mark has it spot on, if this a commercial venture then you need to identify your market first as this will determine the type of boxes to make.
Peter Lloyd tends to work in solid wood and invariably cuts dovetails by hand. Given that he is a renowned box maker and been around for sometime, you can see some of his prices on his web site which aren't that extreme given the effort that goes into his boxes.
Andrew Crawford tend to use MDF / ply substrate and then veneers. I spent a few days at his workshop a couple of years ago and even with a "core" product of flute cases (he is also a musician) which allow some batch production, you are talking longer than a week a box.
The other "new" top end box maker is Ian Hawthorn (Hawthorne Crafts) who again tends to use MDF substrate and veneers over the top.
Peter Lloyd tends to work in solid wood and invariably cuts dovetails by hand. Given that he is a renowned box maker and been around for sometime, you can see some of his prices on his web site which aren't that extreme given the effort that goes into his boxes.
Andrew Crawford tend to use MDF / ply substrate and then veneers. I spent a few days at his workshop a couple of years ago and even with a "core" product of flute cases (he is also a musician) which allow some batch production, you are talking longer than a week a box.
The other "new" top end box maker is Ian Hawthorn (Hawthorne Crafts) who again tends to use MDF substrate and veneers over the top.
tomatwark
Established Member
The problem you will have getting a supplier to machine the wood for you is cost and timber movement.
You will have to have enough machined to get the timber yard interested in the first place and also make the run big enough to make the price right, so you can make profit.
This then creates a problem that as you store the timber it will warp and twist, meaning at the end of the batch you wastage will be high.
In this and the other thread you started, you have not really said what market you are aiming for ( £20 per box or £200 per bow for example), so it is hard to advise the best route.
You will have to have enough machined to get the timber yard interested in the first place and also make the run big enough to make the price right, so you can make profit.
This then creates a problem that as you store the timber it will warp and twist, meaning at the end of the batch you wastage will be high.
In this and the other thread you started, you have not really said what market you are aiming for ( £20 per box or £200 per bow for example), so it is hard to advise the best route.
richard6299":ewu39k5p said:
Actually, I dont think that you can ignore the marketing issues because they are fundamental to the success (or otherwise ) of your venture.
Dont be put off by the cheap stuff sold on Easy unless you intend to adopt a high volume low margin approach (which would be commercial suicide imho).
To stand any chance of success I'd suggest pitching your product at the quality end of the market but that means selling a product with good design, quality materials and fixings and quality finish.Of course, the challenge with this approach is accessing the purchasers that will pay for something different. Part of your sales pitch could be that you are not selling imported Chinese tat but something made in the UK by a craftsman. The other conflict will be in trying to build sufficient quality product to sell 20-30 per week.
I still think that you need to build one first out of hardwood and see how it looks and whether anyone would buy it. Then build another using veneer and see which you find easiest to make. Make a note of which operations take the time so you can re-think your production methods to reduce costs. Also, don't underestimate how long it will take to produce professional joints using a Leigh or other jig, there's a bit more to it than just running a router round a few metal fingers. Having done this you will be in a better position to reassess your business plan.
As for getting a timber yard to prepare the timber for you, it would be interesting to do a cost comparison between "prepared" and un prepared material. I suspect that by the time the timber yard has added its labour costs plus machine time plus their profit margin it will be cheaper to do it yourself.
