US vs European rip fences

[evidence]

So, on every US "Fence buying guide" I come across it mentions making sure to buy a fence that clamps on both the front and back of the saw to prevent it from moving during a cut, however I'm having a hard time finding Europeans saws/fences that do that. The European logic seems to be that a fence should not extend past the blade because it increases the risk of kickback.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Anyone have trouble with fences that don't extend past the blade?

 

[Normancb]

Lots of discussions of this on the forum in the past, but have a look at:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

In general it's best not to read (or watch) stuff from the US on table saws, especially if you are a beginner. It's very difficult (and contentious) to get and interpret statistics but its certain that US attitudes to saw safety are much laxer than ours and it does seem that their accident rate is much higher.

The basic point is that the rear half of a saw blade is moving upwards and trying as hard as it can to fling the workpiece into you. Having a fence which stops before the blade centre means that the work can't get trapped and forced into the upward moving part of the blade so is much safer - hence US style fences are frowned upon. Of course you can do as you please in your own home workshop, but why take risks you don't have to. The European style short fence works just fine as long as its a decent one.

 

[novocaine]

the best suggestion I've seen so far for a full width fence (for rigidity) but safe to operate is to have a sacrificial fence attached that only covers the front side of the blade, I it it stops at the centre point. about 20mm thick. this means you are getting the benefit of a front and rear clamped fence in terms of rigid fixing and the safety benefit of a half fence.

 

[lurker]

The american consitution gives every american the right to saw his hand off.
And thats fine because the taxpayer does not have to pick up the resultant bill.
But over here...............

 

[Ali]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

bravo Lurker

=D> =D>

 

[heimlaga]

I agree with the others!
In order to make public health care viable we must try resist the temptation to self amputate fingers and arms on our table saws :wink:

In vocational school (years 1999-2000) we were taught that the fence should not protrude beyond the center of the blade whenever we rip wood that might have some internal stresses in it.
This can be achieved either by using a home made short fence attachment that fits over a long American style fence or by retracting the sliding fence rail on a big modern saw or by using the type of short fence found old elderly saws. There are many ways of doing it.

Not to bash every American woodworker and American machine. They have a number of good machine designs and some very good craftsmen over there so we shouldn't bash them all........ but most the American youtube "experts" are at least a full century behind our time when it comes to safety.
My rip saw was manufactured in Germany in 1885 and the manufacturer clearly intended it to have a riving knife though the knife was missing when I bought the saw. Some American consumer grade machines reached that stage of development only a couple of years ago and some American hobby woodworkers haven't come that far yet.
The missing riving knife on my saw indicates that there are still a few dodgers in Finland too who haven't reached year 1885 yet...... but they should at least be credited for not promoting their outdated ideas on youtube.

 

[JSW]

I'll take a load of abuse for this but so what.

Every table saw, circular saw, track saw or whatever saw I've ever owned I've removed the riving knife from almost immediately, it's a redundant archaic item that simply inhibits the use of the saw, IMO.

If a work piece ever binds, I back off the cut, try again, or part the cut with a wedge, chisel, or whatever's to hand.

All digits fingers toes and body in one piece still, and been that way for 40 years as a pro Joiner.

Bring it on.

 

[DiscoStu]

The trouble with that is that just because you've had 40 years and not had a problem doesn't make it safe. It might just be that you've been lucky. There are plenty of smokers who haven't died from lung cancer but that doesn't make it safe to smoke.

There are plenty of demos around where people have deliberately twisted the wood to catch and the results are shocking. Don't get me wrong I'm not perfect but I wouldn't deliberately remove a safety feature without a well founded reason. An example where I might do would be to remove the guard to do some trenching cuts, but it would go back on when I'm finished and my fingers are going to be well away. I do struggle to see the need for removing the riving knife and should there be a reason I'd also wonder if it could be used most of the time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[deema]

The fence is more stable on modern machines if it clamps back and front, older machines are normally clamped only on the front rail with a large wide casting that ensures that once clamped it's rock solid.

The fence should always have a sacrificial piece attached to it, this should not extended any further forward than the gullet of the saw teeth, so if you use different sized blades it needs to be adjusted. Again, the older saws had fences that slid back and forth to allow this to be done. The Sedgwick range of saws feature all of these characteristics and are the closest modern saw to the old high quality saws of makers such as Wadkin.

The reason the fence should not extend beyond the gullet of the teeth is to ensure that when the stuff is cut through, the cut piece adjacent to the fence can fall away or move away from the blade into a 'hole' rather than moving and getting potentially wedged against the blade and then being ejected as a kick back.

If you have a good saw, with the meaty motor and you get a jam, you cannot hold the piece and pull it back, it will be ejected at high velocity. This occurs so quickly you will not have time to react and your hands will follow the stuff if your holding it. This is the reason everyone promotes the use of push sticks, as the stuff is ejected your hands don't follow as the sticks act as a decouple.

The two forms of accident from a kick back are normally

1. The stuff flies into you.
2. If you are not using push sticks your hands can get taken into the blade.

The riving knife should always be used, it helps to stop the cut piece pinching in on the blade. This can happen when the internal stresses within the stuff are released by making the cut and the stuff curls into the cut. Harwood in particular can move a lot and anything that's not seasoned properly / large size can equally move.

 

[Jelly]

I'll take a load of abuse for this but so what.

Every table saw, circular saw, track saw or whatever saw I've ever owned I've removed the riving knife from almost immediately, it's a redundant archaic item that simply inhibits the use of the saw, IMO.

If a work piece ever binds, I back off the cut, try again, or part the cut with a wedge, chisel, or whatever's to hand.

All digits fingers toes and body in one piece still, and been that way for 40 years as a pro Joiner.

Bring it on.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of safety features in this instance...

The gist of your argument is that you can remove it, and then remain safe by virtue of vigilance and skill as an operator, that's probably true given you still have all your digits. However the point of the feature is to protect you in the instance that you don't spot the danger in time to prevent a kickback, it's intended to supplement your ability as an operator, not substitute for it.

If the riving knife is getting in the way of how you use a TS, that's usually a sign that a router, spindle moulder, or crosscut saw is actually a better tool for the job.

The only thing we agree on is that riving knives are archaic... Totally enclosed, power fed saws are clearly safer, and more efficient, and using a tool where ones hands may pass close to a fast moving cutter is so 1900's! (Not really practical to always use though, bit like relying solely on skill to protect yourself really).

As an important side note, under the H&S Regs you'd risk both civil liability and criminal negligence charges if were to have an employee, collegues or friend who use or borrowe one of your "adjusted" tools suffer a mishap, as the regulators would see it as you intentionally removing a safety feature fitted by the manufacturer. You can argue all you want on here, but it wouldn't fly with the HSE or the courts.

Edit: In fact even before it gets that far, a client safety rep or auditor wouldn't accept any 'justifications'... Were you to come to any of the site's I'm based at with those tools, there's a good chance you'd be kicked off when your tools were inspected on entering and as a result you or employer would be removed from the approved contractor list, permanently.

 

[williams1185]

without taking sides in any argument if you want to risk injury or even death so be it but having seen the result of a kick back on a rip saw which happened in a place i worked in theres no way i would even chance it . the guy was lucky to be just thrown out a door if the timber he was cutting , a rather large lump of mahogany had hit his face or chest he would have been killed without doubt . if you cant work safely find another way to do the job . a machinist over 35 years still got my ten digits !

 

[otter]

Aren't Bosch German? They employ a 'US' style fence on their GTS 10 XC. I know, I was using mine this morning. I've never thought about the physics behind the arguments for/against this style - I thought is was quite a good idea (YCRTA 'sucked in by Bosch marketing'). The theories mentioned above do make sense though. However, I've not once experienced timber sticking or being trapped against the rear end of the fence in all my time using my table saw. Bosch obviously don't think it's too much of a concern - either that or they think the marketing for a clamped-both-ends fence outweighs the perceived safety/cost of accuracy of a clamped-one-end fence.

 

[MatthewRedStars]

To definitely take sides - and to repeat the above - if you have to remove the riving knife you are doing something very wrong.

Disclaimer: I have removed the RK in the past to make a letterbox style jig where the blade is raised through the soon-to-be-jig... this is a once a year job and I'm suitably scared to be very careful.

In day to day use the RK should never be removed - the simplest reason being that there is no reason to take it off (and lots of reasons to keep it on). And I think it's reckless to say that it is 'okay' to remove it to people who may be less experienced than you.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Sorry, I'm a bit late to this.

A good fence is rigid even when clamped just at the front, on a three-point clamping mechanism. There are examples of this on the net and I've published my own plans too.

The main reason that some fences clamp both front and back are because they are so flimsy in the first place that they don't stay put unless you do. The problem with that is that they do not necessarily clamp perfectly parallel, and that in itself increases the risk of binding and kickback, not to mention an inaccurate cut.

A RIP fence should be short, to give the workpiece a chance to move safely, if it needs to. A long fence precludes that. But that is a RIP fence, for RIPPING solid timber.
For sheet goods work, a longer fence gives better support.

You need the right blade for the job, the right RK for the job, the right guard for the job and the right fence for the job.

Or you can smoke 60 a day, drive without a seatbelt climb 50 storeys of scaffolding without a hard hat and think "Hey, I'm still here - no problem!"

 

[DennisCA]

I have to say most fences, in US and europe only attach and lock at the front.