Update on new AW10BSB2 tablesaw

[prestondocks]

Hi All,

I have only just found this site after looking for reviews on the AW10BSB2. Thanks for the info, you seem to have helped a lot of people with your detailed write up.

I just ordered my saw today. I purchased it from poolewood rather than direct from Axminster. This was about £50 cheaper and they source direct from Axminster.

I now have to wait upto six weeks for delivery. Apparently Axminster have a back log of deliveries. In order to afford the new AW10BSB2, I have had to ebay all my work shop tools. They were all low cost cheapest standalones you can get, but they got me going. I decided it would be better to sell all and get a good quality saw. I have some other things to sell in loft, so will probably try to get enough to get an axminster planer/Thinknesser and mortiser.

I will also be chainging my workshop around when the new saw arrives. I have been measuring up tonight. I will post the pics when I am finished.

 

[woodbloke]

Tony - good update, this is the saw I'll be getting (or the equivalent) in a few years time when I update my gear so it's good to hear encouraging reports about it - Rob

 

[peebsa24]

Hi Tony,
Thanks for a most enlightening report on the Ax saw. I WAS contemplating buying the Fox 36-529. Have you any comments comparing the 2?. How important is the ability to pull the saw through the work as on the Fox Unit?
Going back to the AX saw. How is the rise 7 tilt mechanism? Are they separate controls and lockable? I had a Kity combi 2000 and the rise and tilt were on a common control which was bad news.
Have you tried the sliding table yet? Can you fold it down when not in use? How easy is it to take on and off? I have a slight space problem.
The fence mechanism in your photo looks massive and stable. In you photo you show an angle device set at 90 deg. Did that come with the saw.
I think that the AX saw is sold in Europe by Holzprofi as model no MJ2325D.
Sorry for so many questions but I am JUST about to re-equip my workshop. Super report - keep up the good work.
Best regards,
Peebsa24
France

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Tony,
Thanks for a most enlightening report on the Ax saw. I WAS contemplating buying the Fox 36-529. Have you any comments comparing the 2?. How important is the ability to pull the saw through the work as on the Fox Unit?
Going back to the AX saw. How is the rise 7 tilt mechanism? Are they separate controls and lockable? I had a Kity combi 2000 and the rise and tilt were on a common control which was bad news.
Have you tried the sliding table yet? Can you fold it down when not in use? How easy is it to take on and off? I have a slight space problem.
The fence mechanism in your photo looks massive and stable. In you photo you show an angle device set at 90 deg. Did that come with the saw.
I think that the AX saw is sold in Europe by Holzprofi as model no MJ2325D.
Sorry for so many questions but I am JUST about to re-equip my workshop. Super report - keep up the good work.
Best regards,
Peebsa24
France

Hi Peebsa

In answer to your questions:

1. Sorry, never seen the Fox 36-529 and so cannot comment. I see no reason for drawing the blade through the wood and to be honest, would not like that feature on a saw

2. The rise and tilt are on separate handles; rise on the front and tilt on the right side. both are very smooth and turn freely. The locking mechanism works very well too. One of the reasons I upgraded from my Kity 419 was to get separate rise and tilt, and I am extremely pleased thgat i dis. I have a Wixey digital angle gauge, and with that can easily set the saw tilt within 0.1 degrees -no way I could get this accurate on my kity!

3. I tried the sliding table but there is not enough room in my garage for it and so I sold it to member who has the SIP saw. The sliding table is very rigid, with a cast iron table and huge wood guide. It was easy to fit on the runners and easy to take off (the stop is held on with a single bolt), however, it is very heavy and I wouldn't fancy taking it on and off regularly. It does not fold down. Superb piece of kit, but too large for a single garage. I was very pleased with the money I got for it

4. By the angle device, I think you mean the mitre guage (blue). No, the saw came with a different one to that shown in the picture. I used the blue one as I already had it on my router table and it is very accurate. I now have an Osborne EB3 gauge on the saw that I bought with some of the money form the sliding table sale and this is far more useful than the sldiig table for me

hope this helps

 

[peebsa24]

Hi Peebsa

In answer to your questions:

1. Sorry, never seen the Fox 36-529 and so cannot comment. I see no reason for drawing the blade through the wood and to be honest, would not like that feature on a saw

2. The rise and tilt are on separate handles; rise on the front and tilt on the right side. both are very smooth and turn freely. The locking mechanism works very well too. One of the reasons I upgraded from my Kity 419 was to get separate rise and tilt, and I am extremely pleased thgat i dis. I have a Wixey digital angle gauge, and with that can easily set the saw tilt within 0.1 degrees -no way I could get this accurate on my kity!

3. I tried the sliding table but there is not enough room in my garage for it and so I sold it to member who has the SIP saw. The sliding table is very rigid, with a cast iron table and huge wood guide. It was easy to fit on the runners and easy to take off (the stop is held on with a single bolt), however, it is very heavy and I wouldn't fancy taking it on and off regularly. It does not fold down. Superb piece of kit, but too large for a single garage. I was very pleased with the money I got for it

4. By the angle device, I think you mean the mitre guage (blue). No, the saw came with a different one to that shown in the picture. I used the blue one as I already had it on my router table and it is very accurate. I now have an Osborne EB3 gauge on the saw that I bought with some of the money form the sliding table sale and this is far more useful than the sldiig table for me

hope this helps

Hi Tony,
A VERY helpful reply - thanks very much.
The separate rise and tilt control sounds great. Like you I had a Kity saw in my Combi 2000 and the rise and tilt in the same control was a disaster! No matter how hard I clamped the tilt it would always move when I changed the saw height. The other problem i had with the Kity was the fact that the saw blade and the angle gauge slot milled into the table were not parrellel and there seemed to be no way to adjust the saw. I hope the new saw is better on that count.
It is a pity that the sliding table doesn't fold down. My workshop is 3.55M wide by 7.5M long so it looks like I might also be selling a sliding table.
Your inclinometer and Osborne gauge sounds like a good idea. Where did you find them? I live in SW France and all the wood working outfits, without exception are on the Frence/German border about 8 hrs driving so I don't often get hands on to gadgets until I get back to the UK. Still, there are other advantages to living in SW France!!
Tony, thanks again for a good report and for all your help. I will be buying the saw - probably from Holtprofi here in France.
Best regards,
Peter

 

[shockingmoment]

Fizzy, is yours the exact same model??

If so, it most definitely should not need a 16A supply, the motor is only 2.2kW and the load at startup is small as it only spins a light blade and a small gearing ratio on the belt, so start up current is small.

Sometimes it depends on your fault level current! If you're close to your substation - your fault level current can be quite high.

A stopped (or stalled) motor is effectively a short circuit - fault current flows for a very short time. This can trip the mcb or melt a fuse whilst the motor starts to run up. Start up current can be upto 7 times flc!

I've got the Scheppach t/s - 2500 - it pops the fuse in the 13A plug - so I've fitted a BS4343 16A socket, wired direct to a 16A MCB. Our sub is about 100m away

If you're further away - you get I2R losses etc through the cables supplying your house - your fault level is less!

 

[Anonymous]

Fizzy, is yours the exact same model??

If so, it most definitely should not need a 16A supply, the motor is only 2.2kW and the load at startup is small as it only spins a light blade and a small gearing ratio on the belt, so start up current is small.

Sometimes it depends on your fault level current! If you're close to your substation - your fault level current can be quite high.

A stopped (or stalled) motor is effectively a short circuit - fault current flows for a very short time. This can trip the mcb or melt a fuse whilst the motor starts to run up. Start up current can be upto 7 times flc!

I've got the Scheppach t/s - 2500 - it pops the fuse in the 13A plug - so I've fitted a BS4343 16A socket, wired direct to a 16A MCB. Our sub is about 100m away

If you're further away - you get I2R losses etc through the cables supplying your house - your fault level is less!

Not sure I am with you on the fault level current - there is no known earth fault on the saw. Fault level current , is dependant on wire resistance (impedance) which is partly determined by cable length back to the star point in the sub as you say, and a closer sub might well cause a higher fault current if there is an electrical fault.

Although a stopped motor is a virtual short circuit at startup (low resistance dominates inductance until it is spinning and a back EMF is generated), that does not cause a fault current to flow, just a higher current than the normal run current.

Your point about I2C losses is also leaving me confused. I2R losses in cables results in heat being generated (i^2R is DC power) and a resulting voltage drop, not an increased fault current back to the sub station.

I would not expect Fizzy's motor to draw 7 times FLC at startup if the saw itself is not faulty as the mechanical load is very low (low inertia in the pulley/blade combination) and typically, I measure around 2.5-3 times the FLC on these types of installations (with induction motors).
On large (industrial) loads, I regularly measure 7 or 8 times FLC which often flows for seconds, but these have huge mechanical loads (inertias).
On a tablesaw the start current flows for a few hundred mS and even fuses that are not rated as motor-starter should not blow.

A 2.2KW tablesaw should not require more than a 13A fuse unless there is some problem with it such as high mechanical loading causing an increase in startup current

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Tony,
A VERY helpful reply - thanks very much.

My pleasure Peter

The osborne came directly from the company https://www.shop.osbornemfg.com/displayProductDocument.hg?productId=2

The Wixey is available from axminster

 

[peebsa24]

Hi Tony,
Many thanks for the info on tthe osbourne.
I agree with you. A 2.2kw motor with a low inertiate load should be no problem for a 13amp supply. One assumes that he hasn't got a piece of wood trpped in the saw thus causing Locked Rotor conditions. I think that the thing he should be investigating is the "Puff of smoke from the NVC"!!!
Best regards,
Peter

 

[shockingmoment]

Not sure I am with you on the fault level current - there is no known earth fault on the saw. Fault level current , is dependant on wire resistance (impedance) which is partly determined by cable length back to the star point in the sub as you say, and a closer sub might well cause a higher fault current if there is an electrical fault.

Although a stopped motor is a virtual short circuit at startup (low resistance dominates inductance until it is spinning and a back EMF is generated), that does not cause a fault current to flow, just a higher current than the normal run current.

Your point about I2C losses is also leaving me confused. I2R losses in cables results in heat being generated (i^2R is DC power) and a resulting voltage drop, not an increased fault current back to the sub station.

I would not expect Fizzy's motor to draw 7 times FLC at startup if the saw itself is not faulty as the mechanical load is very low (low inertia in the pulley/blade combination) and typically, I measure around 2.5-3 times the FLC on these types of installations (with induction motors).
On large (industrial) loads, I regularly measure 7 or 8 times FLC which often flows for seconds, but these have huge mechanical loads (inertias).
On a tablesaw the start current flows for a few hundred mS and even fuses that are not rated as motor-starter should not blow.

A 2.2KW tablesaw should not require more than a 13A fuse unless there is some problem with it such as high mechanical loading causing an increase in startup current

You don't need an earth fault for a fault current to flow - a short from live to neutral will do - which is what occurs at startup on the motor - very briefly though. If you are close to the sub this can be much greater than if your further away! So the same motor that may pop a 13A fuse in one location will be fine somewhere else.

1 too many Is! IR applies to AC and DC circuits. If you're a fair distance away from the sub - you'll have lots of other users drawing current down the same line as you - thus the IR losses resulting in a reduced voltage at your house - reduced voltage = reduced current for the same resistance. If your closer - your voltage can be higher.

A 240VAC 2.2kw single phase motor FLC is referenced here:
www.brookcrompton.com/pdf-files/2227e_1phase_v1.1e.pdf

1500 rpm motor is 15A
3000 rpm motor is 13.2A

These are for Brook motors though. This would suggest a standard 13A plug should not be used! I suspect that, as table saws are not continuously operated, particularly on full load, then problems do not arise. Both mu scheppach machines have a 16A supply.

I do accept the point re the start up current. I'm familiar with three phase machines taking up to 7 times FLC on start up and naturally assumed that single phase motors would do the same.

 

[Anonymous]

You don't need an earth fault for a fault current to flow

A current flowing through a motor at startup is not a fault current, but the normal starting current for the motor. The term 'fault' refers to something out of the ordinary.

- a short from live to neutral will do - which is what occurs at startup on the motor

This is an induction motor, not a wound rotor motor, and so there is a field resistance path of between (typically) 25 and 100 ohms, not a short circuit.
I think you are confusing your motors here - the armature resistance of a brushed DC motor will be very low. The armature spins in a magnetic field which results in a back EMF (which is like an increased armature resistance)

1 too many Is! IR applies to AC and DC circuits.

True, I was referring to power loss, but you were referring to volt drop across the condutors. Your statement is correct only if you exclude phase angles - the voltage drop is not the same for AC and DC

thus the IR losses resulting in a reduced voltage at your house

This is true (the effect is small due to cable properly selected size from sub to houses) , however, the tools are rated for 240V RMS and the supply is approx. 240V at the sub (or more likely less (230-240) due to the EU agreement that mainland europe and UK will operate that the 'same' voltages).
If the voltage can only reduce over the wires to your house, I do not see why a 2.2KW motor would blow the fuse with a maximum, and unlikley, 240V

Please remember that the saw that started this discussion had smoke coming from the NVR starter

.

 

[peebsa24]

"Please remember that the saw that started this discussion had smoke coming from the NVR starter"

Hi Tony,
I am glad that we both made the same point about the smoke!! It is the NVR that should be investigated not the sub station or Ohms Law. At the end of the day we are taking about an induction motor with a tiny inertial load (the saw blade) plus the windage and friction, most of which is inherent in the design of the motor - cooling, bearing friction etc.
How is your saw project coming along? I have just ordered the same saw.
Best regards,
Peter

 

[Anonymous]

How is your saw project coming along? I have just ordered the same saw.
Best regards,
Peter

Hi Peter

I just replaced the magnifier on the fence as this is the only weak point on the saw with the line being too thick. I used a bar magnifier from Tesco and it works just great after 20 minutes work with a rasp and saw

 

[peebsa24]

Hi Tony,
Thanks for the tip re the magnifier. The fence and the supporting rail look MASSIVE!! i can't wait to get my hands on mine.
Keep up the good work.
Best regards,
Peter

 

[Jhalfa]

I bought the saw a while back based on Tony's original review. I have also done a few things to it:

- Changed the blade for a 50 tooth TCT general purpose version
- Given the space constraints I have also mounted one of the tables on the left and not installed the sliding table. I only have a large garage and setting the saw up as designed would have rather dominated
- Put it on wheels so it is possible to drag it around
- This weekend I took off the outfield table and replaced it with a drawer unit with a melamine faced MDF top at the same level as the saw. The standard table was steel, rather crude, and took up space
- I also reset the riving knife to be exactly aligned with the right side of the blade (it was a bit off)
- Finally replaced the aluminium insert (with a large slot) with one made from some thin MDF (with a slot the width of the blade)

As for replacing the magnifier, I must admit that I never use the scale and instead measure from the fence to the blade with a tape measure every time I use the saw. Also I have got in the habit of measuring from both ends of the fence to the mitre slot every time to make sure it is parallel (it isn't always)

Really nice piece of kit and I wish I had bought one before

Regards

Jonathan

 

[peebsa24]

Hi Jonathan,
Thanks for the tips. When my saw finally arrives I will be locking at what everyone else has done to improve performance.
Best regards

 

[peebsa24]

Hi Tony,
At last I have my saw!! I finally bought it from Holtzprofi - I live in France and Axminster wanted 300 quid to ship it from the UK!!
I can't tell you how pleased I am with it. It replaces a Kity Best Combi 2000 and the differences are enormous. After the Kity I can't get over how accessible all the adjustment points are - it was a nightmare to adjust the slider on the Kity. I think that maintenance will also be easier than on the Kity- try changing the planer belt on a Kity combi!!!
I also bought a 4 speed tilting arbour spindle at the same time. it is made by the same manufacturers as the saw and shares many of the same design features. It is a fine piece of engineering and a joy to work with.
Thanks again for your review of the saw - that is what made me go for it.
Best regards,
Peter

 

[peebsa24]

Hi Tony,
Did you have any problems setting the riving knife? With the supplied 10" blade I can't get the knife to drop any closer than about 14 mm which seems a bit excessive.

 

[motownmartin]

Peter, I have the Axminster saw and have a similar problem although it's about 10mm.

This leads to another problem, when the blade is wound all the way down the riving knife is still protruding through the table by about 8mm.

I thought about elongating the slot to allow the knife to go down further but I don't have the tools to do it.

Please let me know if you solve it.

Regards

Martin

 

[peebsa24]

Hi Martin,
Glad to here that I am not alone with the problem. There may be a way of increasing the drop of the saw - I will take the covers off tommorrow and have a look. That will not fix the riving knife gap though. I am not sure just how important the gap is to the cutting action.
The only way that I can see to fix both problems is to elongate the slot by drilling cutting and filing but maybe Tony has a better solution. It would be nice to have the use of the huge table for lay-ups etc without having the "bump" in the middle.
Apart from that I am well please with my saw - a Holzprofi identical look alike to the Axminster job.