Ulmia 744 - Joint Strip Cutter

[Dovetaildave]

Hi,

https://www.amazon.com/Ulmia-Veneer-Joi ... B004VQ7E8A

Has anyone here used one or have the instruction booklets that come with them ?

Regards,
Dave

 

[Droogs]

What would you like to know? I have one but not the leaflets. Its very easy to use though. the twin blades on the right are width adjusted using the washers and the left side of the tool is run along a straight edge to give repeatable width inlay strips and the the blade on t he left is used to make joints either along or across veneer that doesn't need any further prep before butt jointing, obviously the tool is run along a straight edge along the right hand side

hth

 

[Dovetaildave]

Thanks for the reply Droogs,

I was seriously thinking I'm the only person in the UK to have one of these 744, I searched on an American site and couldn't find anything on there either, surprising.

I was hoping to short-cut some of the mistakes that usually precede my learning curve in most things, maybe the instruction booklet might have some information/tips/inspiration that hasn't occurred to me yet.

All my questions would relate to me using this cutter on my stock of veneers that are generally all less than .6mm in thickness and scotch glue is my favourite adhesive.

Ill try to ask the questions as directly as possible, so as to save you having to guess what I maybe alluding to, if its easier to slot answer in, do it, I'm dyslexic and i find this sort of thing really tricky and seriously time consuming (3+ hours so far)

I was wondering if its possible to hammer (Animal/scotch glue) down a background and then remove a string whilst its still warm, i presume it is but maybe not? Would I need to turn the blades around to present a straight face to the remaining background veneer? I'd presume again I'd have to sort out some stops (preventing it running straight off the table top/background) to allow for mitring stringing around corners, and as I haven't tried it was hoping someone has done it and would share their experiences, good or bad.

Have you produced any long lengths of stringing, what did you use to protect your bench, if it was 2.4m lengths of MDF (did it dull the blades quickly?) or something different, does Ply (cutting with the grain) cause the blades to track and wonder?

When producing string have you used tape to support the cut edge or when stacking and butt cutting, if so what tape did you try/use?

Have you tried producing cross banding, did any species show any differences ? again taping or untaped?

Did you find the paired knives became blunt quickly. Do they sharpen easily/hold an edge? Did you hold them with something to avoid cutting yourself on the open ends, did you find any particular angle to hone at?

If butt jointing and cutting through 4 layers, would you set blade length by placing sole on a 5 layer stack first?, is 4 layers too many or can you cut more?

Have you cut walnut burl, if yes is it better to cut in pairs or singles, have you quartered or produced and stars or fans?

Fence, what's the longest fence you've used, what cross section worked best for you? did you clamp it down, did you stick sandpaper underneath to prevent it slipping?

Is pulling it easier than pushing, few light passes first or do you go straight in whether cross cutting or with the grain?

Looking forward to any answers or experiences your happy to share.

Regards,
Dave

 

[AndyT]

I don't have one of those but I noticed that you were keen to see the supplier's leaflets.
You can download the leaflet as a pdf from here, though it may be too brief to help.

https://www.ulmia.de/English/Ulmia-Schr ... pfel_2.htm

 

[custard]

I was wondering if its possible to hammer (Animal/scotch glue) down a background and then remove a string whilst its still warm

Not really. Firstly you don't want string or inlay with glue on the back. Secondly scotch glue pretty much sets during the hammering process. Thirdly if it hadn't set then it would be sliding around while you're cutting. Fourthly you normally want your inlay or stringing to be fractionally thicker than the veneer you're laying it into. I presume you're talking about cutting the groove for string and inlay rather than cutting the actual string or inlay that will be set into that groove?

Have you tried producing cross banding, did any species show any differences ? again taping or untaped?

I've never taped cross banding. It's not really necessary because you fit cross banding in small sections just a few inches long. You work around the piece, fitting the cross-grain edge banding one small section after another.

Dave, I don't use this particular tool but I've done plenty of inlay, stringing, and edge banding. I'm not sure from your post if you specifically want advice on this particular tool or on the process of inlay work?

 

[Alexam]

The comments prompted me to look up 'stringing' and I found this video. Seems that it can be done with tools to hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxmlFDH7UBE

 

[Dovetaildave]

Hi Guys, I've never managed to use the !quote! thingy....here goes

I don't have one of those but I noticed that you were keen to see the supplier's leaflets.
You can download the leaflet as a pdf from here, though it may be too brief to help.

https://www.ulmia.de/English/Ulmia-Schr ... pfel_2.htm

Andy; Had read this in a few variations online. It doesnt look like an "instruction booklet in German and English" more like sales type info....hoping to see the "instructions" if possible.

I'm not sure from your post if you specifically want advice on this particular tool

Custard; I do have some experience in general inlay,veneering,crossbanding, its this exact tool I'm curious about as I really want to avoid the need to shoot edges and even produce my own stringing. Since crispins and capital veneers merged it's not as local or as affordable.

The comments prompted me to look up 'stringing' and I found this video. Seems that it can be done with tools to hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxmlFDH7UBE

Alex; Barry Lorimer is great, down to earth, says-what-it-does-on-the-tin kinda guy. shame he didn't do the other videos he said he would. I recall one of the vids has a compressor on and off in the background, bang crash wallop and he come back in front of camera and gets on with it...great.

I'm interested in information on Ulmia 744 - Joint Strip Cutter, and trying to use it to its maximum potential, it seems no one in UK or US has ever posted about this tool....Maybe Droogs and I own the only two in existence and I should be keeping it in a glass showcase

 

[Droogs]

Dave I'll look at your list in detail tomorrow and get back to you with the sections I can help with then. been busy today can't even play with my new toy. Main thing to remember is that you have the flat facing the edge you want to keep. So yeah turn around the blades after cutting either the stringing or the part you intend to route out. The blades keep an edge fairly well but you do need to go right up the grit and strop to make sure you get a good clean cut, will get back to tthe rest in the am.
the 744 is still fairly common for sale in german version of ebay local got mine and my 728 there

 

[Droogs]

Hi Dave here are the answers I can give

I was wondering if its possible to hammer (Animal/scotch glue) down a background and then remove a string whilst its still warm, i presume it is but maybe not?
The big problem doing this is that the veneer can slip, not a major chance but if its still just a little too warm then it will move and wreck the cut by going wonky. I always wait until the glue has cooled and set (not cured) before I do anything else.

Would I need to turn the blades around to present a straight face to the remaining background veneer?
The edge of the veneer that is on the piece that is to stay will only be true if you have the flat face running on that edge as you cut. So when cutting the inlay string from the loose veneer, the flats are facing inward and when cutting the piece to be removed from the background facing outward.


I'd presume again I'd have to sort out some stops (preventing it running straight off the table top/background) to allow for mitring stringing around corners, and as I haven't tried it was hoping someone has done it and would share their experiences, good or bad.

You need to have stops at the start and finish of the cut if it doesn't go right to the edge of the piece. I always first position the guide clamp and then place the point of the blade at the start/end points of the cut and then secure a stop-block in place after making sure that the cutter is square. The start and end points also take into account any mitres etc I then cut the mitres after hammering the inlay down. First carefully trimming the top piece until the weight of my knife cuts through and then clear that piece away after sitting the iron on it for a few seconds then let it cool and repeat for the lower piece of the inlay and heat it all up and remove the excess and hammer it all down for a tight secure join.

Have you produced any long lengths of stringing, what did you use to protect your bench, if it was 2.4m lengths of MDF (did it dull the blades quickly?) or something different, does Ply (cutting with the grain) cause the blades to track and wonder?

The length of stringing I make is entirely dependent on the length of the source veneer. The longest I use in the things I make has been about 1.2m but if the flitch of veneer is longer I tend to make up a batch using the whole lentght and then trim as I need it. I started using just plan MDF and it's fine but, yes it dulls the blades very quickly. I then tried a veneer faced MDF but the surface turns to rubbish within a few cuts. I now use a couple of boards of MDF one was cut full length from a sheet and one full width from another both around 500mm wide. They have a few holes drilled in them to allow No4 ½ shanked countersunk screws to pass through which get screwed into the top of the bench in holes that I have place for the purpose. The straight edge guide is just clamped to the board when I'm ready. This is the good bit, I laid the top of the board with vynl. I got the smoothest unpatterned strips I could as offcuts. It's the same stuff I use for my cutting board when using the window method and a knife for some of the marquetry stuff I do. It is basically self healing and lasts for a really long time (6 years so far)and helps keep a decent edge. Cutting with the grain presents the same problems that is does with everything, yep it will wander if you let it. The secret as always is a light first cut and then a second one to break through.

When producing string have you used tape to support the cut edge or when stacking and butt cutting, if so what tape did you try/use?

If the veneer is a brittle wood or it's a narrow short grain cut then I do use tape (Blue decorators type) I also use this as the edging tape for when I make packets up to be cut


Have you tried producing cross banding, did any species show any differences ? again taping or untaped?

See above

Did you find the paired knives became blunt quickly. Do they sharpen easily/hold an edge? Did you hold them with something to avoid cutting yourself on the open ends, did you find any particular angle to hone at?

I sharpen all my edges free hand. I use Ultex diamond plate – course(300)/medium(600), fine(1000)/extra fine(1200) then I go to a 3000/8000 waterstone and then onto a strop with brown cutting paste (I got a big block of it cheep). The twin blades are a bit small to hold comfortably so converted a modelling knife handle to fit the blades and use this when sharpening them. The angle comes with muscle memory and practice and is not critical if you are out by a couple of degrees as long as the back of the blades are true and flat.

If butt jointing and cutting through 4 layers, would you set blade length by placing sole on a 5 layer stack first?, is 4 layers too many or can you cut more?

If I'm butt jointing a large surface area, its done with both pieces of veneer already hammered in place having made registration marks to align every but overlapping slightly and then trimmed so that the joint is as tight as possible. If cutting multiple layered batches, I would go no more than 4 layers and would also use a waster layer at the bottom placed at right angles grain wise to ensure clean cuts on the bottom veneer I wanted to use. Set the blade depth so that is will also cut the waster layer or at least score it fairly deeply if not all the way through to the cutting mat surface

Have you cut walnut burl, if yes is it better to cut in pairs or singles, have you quartered or produced and stars or fans?

Any wild grain veneer I prep first with veneer softener and flatten in a press and then only take it out to work on. I only work one sheet at a time with burs/burls etc as they do take a bit more attention to get right



Fence, what's the longest fence you've used, what cross section worked best for you? did you clamp it down, did you stick sandpaper underneath to prevent it slipping?

Fence length is as per the boards above. They are just MDF with some iron on oak edgebanding. I clamp the guide in place before cutting and the lower surface of the guide has 120grit paper glued to it to help give a little friction and preventing slippage.


Is pulling it easier than pushing, few light passes first or do you go straight in whether cross cutting or with the grain?

I do both always a light initial cut to ensure it is true and doesn't go awry with the grain and then a decent bit of pressure and keep going until through

Hope this helps

 

[Dovetaildave]

Hi Dave here are the answers I can give

I was wondering if its possible to hammer (Animal/scotch glue) down a background and then remove a string whilst its still warm, i presume it is but maybe not?
The big problem doing this is that the veneer can slip, not a major chance but if its still just a little too warm then it will move and wreck the cut by going wonky. I always wait until the glue has cooled and set (not cured) before I do anything else.

So you'd use this 744 as you would with any cutting implement, say a pair of cutting gauges ( or that tasty looking 728 http://hierbilder.de/cQbHQ ) in relation to the glues tack state ?

[quote I laid the top of the board with vynl. I got the smoothest unpatterned strips I could as offcuts. It's the same stuff I use for my cutting board when using the window method and a knife for some of the marquetry stuff I do. It is basically self healing and lasts for a really long time (6 years so far)and helps keep a decent edge. Cutting with the grain presents the same problems that is does with everything, yep it will wander if you let it. The secret as always is a light first cut and then a second one to break through.[/i][/b][/quote]

Great idea with the floor vinyl as I could only manage lengths according to my A3 cutting mat, ill make one up when I come across the next good skip, you used contact adhesive?

[quote
If the veneer is a brittle wood or it's a narrow short grain cut then I do use tape (Blue decorators type) I also use this as the edging tape for when I make packets up to be cut


Many years ago I had to restore a 1715c walnut card table, including bits of the 1/2" feather edged banding, (http://www.inlaybanding.com/banding272.html ) also had to bend it round the circles for the candlestands, requiring me to split the crispins banding down the middle to allow it to bend around the circles and curves. With that in mind have you (or heard of anyone else) tried producing this kind of banding using .3-5mm veneer and the 744 specifically? [/quote] I ask as I'm trying to ascertain the max/min limitations of cutting taped short angled grain. I've never used blue tape how long could you keep blue taped veneer before the tapes adhesive crystallines or damages the veneer?

[quote The twin blades are a bit small to hold comfortably so converted a modelling knife handle to fit the blades and use this when sharpening them. [/quote]
Another great idea, would that be one of those aluminium twist chuck types, Exacto knife (i think thats what they call them in the US)?

[quoteIf cutting multiple layered batches, I would go no more than 4 layers and would also use a waster layer at the bottom placed at right angles grain wise to ensure clean cuts on the bottom veneer I wanted to use. Set the blade depth so that is will also cut the waster layer or at least score it fairly deeply if not all the way through to the cutting mat surfac[/i][/b]e [/quote]

Would the quantity of layers be a generality or specific to the 744 ?

[quote Fence length is as per the boards above. They are just MDF with some iron on oak edgebanding.[/quote]

Another very useful tip, I've got some iron-on edging Oak somewhere, 20 years old, interesting to see if it still works after 20 years, that's if i can find it.
I presume its to reduce friction and to keep the fence's face edge straight and undamaged?

[quoteHope this helps[/quote]

Totally does, some very useful information passed on, and some very useful tips to boot Thanks so much

Having had a quick look at the 728 this morning (6am and sleepy), it looks like it wound be better to be used instead of the 744 in regard to the first question of cutting away a waste string on freshly laid background, or would the lifter just get stuck to the gelling glue, or would that wheel come into play?

Would be good if someone were to be able to scan a booklet for the Ulmia 744, ironically it probably says no more that AndyT has linked to already, fingers crossed tho .

 

[Droogs]

So you'd use this 744 as you would with any cutting implement, say a pair of cutting gauges ( or that tasty looking 728 http://hierbilder.de/cQbHQ ) in relation to the glues tack state ? yep. The 728 you show is a #2 - rare as rocking horse manooooor, I just have a #1 which is the short version. but meets my needs so far.

Great idea with the floor vinyl as I could only manage lengths according to my A3 cutting mat, ill make one up when I come across the next good skip, you used contact adhesive? yeah just a big tube of Bostik

Many years ago I had to restore a 1715c walnut card table, including bits of the 1/2" feather edged banding, (http://www.inlaybanding.com/banding272.html ) also had to bend it round the circles for the candlestands, requiring me to split the crispins banding down the middle to allow it to bend around the circles and curves. With that in mind have you (or heard of anyone else) tried producing this kind of banding using .3-5mm veneer and the 744 specifically? [/quote] I ask as I'm trying to ascertain the max/min limitations of cutting taped short angled grain. I've never used blue tape how long could you keep blue taped veneer before the tapes adhesive crystallines or damages the veneer? Good questions, the 2nd first - Blue tape will last a couple of years at least if kept dry, generally mine is used up within a few months of getting it. IFor circular and oval cross-bandings I don't use the 744. I use the 728. After marking out the substrate using it as a compass or attached to my Archemeides trammel, I then then make the cross-banding using over long pieces, and lay them one at a time following my markings and then I trim them with the 728. I do need to point our I don't start on the crosbandings until I have finished whaterver the centrepiece is. This way I get the exact radii needed

[quote The twin blades are a bit small to hold comfortably so converted a modelling knife handle to fit the blades and use this when sharpening them. [/quote]
Another great idea, would that be one of those aluminium twist chuck types, Exacto knife (i think thats what they call them in the US)?
exactly that, but make sure you get one with a metal blade holder. The plastic centres are pants

Would the quantity of layers be a generality or specific to the 744 ? My general rule any more than this using a cutting blade becomes a series of diminishing returns in regards to edge quality to my mind. anything above 4 layers and its over the the fretsaw both hand and powered.

[quote Fence length is as per the boards above. They are just MDF with some iron on oak edgebanding.[/quote]

Another very useful tip, I've got some iron-on edging Oak somewhere, 20 years old, interesting to see if it still works after 20 years, that's if i can find it.
I presume its to reduce friction and to keep the fence's face edge straight and undamaged? Bang on and when it gets damaged or wears it can be easily replaced

[quoteHope this helps[/quote]

Totally does, some very useful information passed on, and some very useful tips to boot Thanks so much

Having had a quick look at the 728 this morning (6am and sleepy), it looks like it wound be better to be used instead of the 744 in regard to the first question of cutting away a waste string on freshly laid background, or would the lifter just get stuck to the gelling glue, or would that wheel come into play? That's exactly what it's for, creating the inlay dado. It comes with several blades of differing widths, its a great bit of kit

Would be good if someone were to be able to scan a booklet for the Ulmia 744, ironically it probably says no more that AndyT has linked to already, fingers crossed tho I've yet to find a copy of the proper instructions, Though the 744 onsale on EbayLokal in germany is new old stock so may have it .[/quote]