Tutorials on Frame and Panel (with Mouldings) by Hand?

[Jacob]

1 Scribing the stile gives a bit of weathering to the bottom rail.
2 Why not do it as a matter of course?

If the stile or jamb of a window were to be scribed, any shrinkage in the width of the rail would result in an ugly gap between the scribe and the mould.

Yes but it'd weather better. Either way there would be a gap

I fail to see how 300 years worth of joiners can have got it so wrong all this time!.

Well they didn't in my experience

On another note, why have all the tennoners that have been made over the years been fitted with scribing heads?, and why were sash moulding planes often sold with scribing templates to form the scribe on the rail?

In both cases these are later (semi) industrial processes which make the process cheaper but slightly inferior.
I'm talking about hand done stuff where it's just as easy to do it the other way.
What are these "scribing templates" and could they not be used for scribing on the stile?

PS I find it odd that I'm having to defend something which I always thought was axiomatic and widely accepted i.e "avoid water traps". I see no reason to change my mind!

 

[G S Haydon]

1. IME the concept of the internal scribe needing to be weathered does not seem important. However Jacob, I do agree that your method is more weather resistant. The evidence for this would be the external glazing bead arrangement on double glazed window. Verticals scribed over horizontals = more weather resistant.

2. Never seen a window or door (yet) that has failed because of a non weathered scribe.

 

[Jacob]

......
2. Never seen a window or door (yet) that has failed because of a non weathered scribe.

But you wouldn't know if it was a direct cause or just a contributor, but if a joint opens to form a water trap it certainly will be a contributor.
It's always a combination of things, lack of maintenance being prime and bottom rails the most vulnerable.

 

[G S Haydon]

Tricky I guess, down here in Devon they seem to go in the bottom of the stile, behind the putty. FWIW your way seems belt and braces, should you need braces with your belt ;-)

Here's one then to further OP derail. Outer pulley stile lining - Junction between this and the cill - Overlap causes little area to trap water behind. Do you

A: Cut a miter or similar to allow water to drain out

B: Leave it be.

I'm in the A camp. IME a classic area for rot.

 

[richarnold]

Quote:

If the stile or jamb of a window were to be scribed, any shrinkage in the width of the rail would result in an ugly gap between the scribe and the mould.
Yes but it'd weather better. Either way there would be a gap. (not true)

The whole point of scribing the rail is that regardless of how much the rail shrinks or expands in it's width, the scribe remains tight with no gap This is the whole propose of scribing in the first place!
If timber shrank in it's length rather than it's width to any great degree it would be sensible to scribe the stile, but due to the experience of hundreds of years of tradesmen we know this not to be the case.

 

[Jacob]

Tricky I guess, down here in Devon they seem to go in the bottom of the stile, behind the putty. FWIW your way seems belt and braces, should you need a braces with your belt ;-)

Belt and braces is another basic feature of trad joinery e.g. glue plus wedges plus peg etc. You don't know you need the braces until the belt fails

Here's one then to further OP derail. Outer pulley stile lining - Junction between this and the cill - Overlap causes little area to trap water behind. Do you

A: Cut a miter or similar to allow water to drain out

B: Leave it be.

I'm in the A camp. IME a classic area for rot.

I've always done B - mainly because it does seem to survive as long as there is a bit of routine maintenance.
But I have seen brilliant alternative C in a house in Ireland where I did a lot of windows - the front half of the cill was omitted so that there was only a half cill sitting back just behind the front face of the bottom sash. This removed a whole lot of troublesome details at a stroke - every step was weathered with no place for water to sit. I've never seen it anywhere else but it was such an intelligent detail it must surely have been used often.

 

[G S Haydon]

I think that's what whacky about this. Almost all boxes I've got my mits on with the B are all spongey. Yet I don't have any evidence of scribe problems.

Yeah but your belt and braces is your belt and braces, not the belt and braces of most. Your belt and brace does not include my A method, like you said never know when that belt is gonna fail (mainly the fail is bad maintenance). "because it does seem to survive as long as there is a bit of routine maintenance" what if there is not, your reason for the weathered scribe I would assume?

Those Irish cills sound interesting. Without the timber cill to the front where did the box terminate, onto a masonry cill?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

As far as weatherproofing the bottom of the window is concerned, yes A. I found a neat one by accident about twenty years ago, I did major repairs on a couple of box frame windows. When coming to replace the parting bead, I had some nice hardwood offcuts that were exactly the right dimensions but weren't long enough, so I decided to use two pieces for each one. I put the join just below the horns of the upper sash, painted everything and didn't think any more about it, until I needed to take both sashes out. Brilliant! Just take the top bead out - barring an inch or so, it's indoors - the bottom of the window that gets the rain remains perfectly painted and sealed.

 

[G S Haydon]

How many ways can we skin a cat

 

[Jacob]

.......
Those Irish cills sound interesting. Without the timber cill to the front where did the box terminate, onto a masonry cill?

Yes. The stone cills had a steep fall (15º ish) and the timbers all rested on lead mastic. The timber half cill sat on an upstand carved from the stone making a water bar. They essential feature being that as little timber as possible was in contact with the stone cill.. I have seen this water bar detail in other Geogian buildings but never the half cill.
It was a large classic Irish country house empty and derelict and the ground floor had been used for sheep and cattle. The windows hadn't been painted for 50 years or so and all the glass had been broken. Nevertheless the windows would have been just about saveable if I had lived and worked locally but instead I copied and replaced. I guess Dublin architect would have been responsible and I always meant to go on a window trail in Dublin but haven't managed this yet.

 

[bugbear]

I've never seen it anywhere else but it was such an intelligent detail it must surely have been used often.

Surely your wide experience in this area is actually sufficient to say that it wasn't used often, even if it seems a good idea?

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

I've never seen it anywhere else but it was such an intelligent detail it must surely have been used often.

Surely your wide experience in this area is actually sufficient to say that it wasn't used often, even if it seems a good idea?

BugBear

Don't be silly. There are millions of windows in Britain - I've only been involved closely with a few hundred of them. I'm expecting someone to tell me that what I saw is common in Dublin, or London, Hartlepool, wherever.

 

[bugbear]

I've never seen it anywhere else but it was such an intelligent detail it must surely have been used often.

Surely your wide experience in this area is actually sufficient to say that it wasn't used often, even if it seems a good idea?

BugBear

Don't be silly. There are millions of windows in Britain - I've only been involved closely with a few hundred of them. I'm expecting someone to tell me that what I saw is common in Dublin, or London, Hartlepool, wherever.

I will try to bear in mind the sparsity of your knowledge.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

I don't think it's quite the detail you are describing, Jacob, but in Bath, where stone cills were the norm, common practice was to make the sash box with sides and head only. The lower sash came down directly to the stone cill which is weathered by about 15 degrees.
In Bristol (and presumably elsewhere too) there is a timber bottom member to complete the box and the sash closes onto that.

 

[Jacob]

I don't think it's quite the detail you are describing, Jacob, but in Bath, where stone cills were the norm, common practice was to make the sash box with sides and head only. The lower sash came down directly to the stone cill which is weathered by about 15 degrees.
In Bristol (and presumably elsewhere too) there is a timber bottom member to complete the box and the sash closes onto that.

Interesting - sounds similar. I'll have to have a look one day. Isn't there an architectural museum in Bath?

 

[GazPal]

I've never seen it anywhere else but it was such an intelligent detail it must surely have been used often.

Surely your wide experience in this area is actually sufficient to say that it wasn't used often, even if it seems a good idea?

BugBear

Don't be silly. There are millions of windows in Britain - I've only been involved closely with a few hundred of them. I'm expecting someone to tell me that what I saw is common in Dublin, or London, Hartlepool, wherever.

Speaking of Hartlepool, you do come across a number of variations within the North East and Borders area (Doubtless nationwide on properties of a certain age) with timber sash surmounting stone/concrete cills (Sill for timber, Cill for stone) with built-in weathering sealed via leadwork or bitumen. Such weathering detail would also often be present at each stone jamb/reveal - wherever timber met stone. I've seen it most often on pre-Edwardian structures - English Heritage projects and estate cottages - and seldom on anything built after 1914. It was a method adapted from wrought iron windows normally fitted within stone jambs, heads and cills and often involved the use of a leadwork or pitch seal as a belts and braces dampness barrier.

 

[AndyT]

Indeed there is and it's well worth a visit. You might like the sash window exhibit!

http://buildingofbathcollection.org.uk/

 

[G S Haydon]

Thanks Jacob. The only bad thing I can see on that type of detail is the whole of the box end grain is in contact with the cill. Perhaps in addition to what Gaz says these were common where an easy working stone was available?

 

[Jacob]

........
...... slightly shonkier methods of joinery are less likely to fail............. require the joinery to be done to best practice, .........

Always makes me laugh how furniture makers seem to take this attitude as though they are doing something special and more demanding. Pure ignorance really - anybody attempting architectural trad joinery can tell you that it is technically demanding , there are standards of best practice and making furniture is a doddle in comparison. We know this well having done both.
External joinery is the most demanding due to the very different environments on opposite sides. Many common items of joinery (sash window primarily) are far more complicated than furniture, with many more components and a much more demanding performance spec.

PS Imagine St Jim Krenov (or many of his acolytes) trying to make a sash window. They wouldn't know where to begin whereas any fool can have a crack at one of his funny little cupboards (and many do :lol: ).

 

[bugbear]

there are standards of best practice

But what is "standard good practice" and how do you find out about it?

BugBear