tuning handsaws

[bugbear]

Evidence? Never heard of it until partaking in forums such as this, never seen it on any of the many saws I've encountered, old and new, never felt the need when actually using a rip saw.
Just another myth which beginners hope might be the secret of success.

Your ignorance covers many things, Jacob, and proves little about anything than yourself.

As I recall, you once didn't know about scrub planes either, calling them yet another toolie myth, and yet you now enjoy using them.

Us "toolies" are quite happy to educate others, but you are a particularly slow and bad mannered pupil.

Learn more - sources are readily available - or stop pronouncing with self-asserted authority about old tools which you keep claiming to care nothing about.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

I've only owned one rip, a beautiful old Philadelphia Disston. It has 3 1/2 t.p.i. at one end and 4 1/2 t.p.p. at the other. It makes the cut very slightly easier to start - whether or not it's worth the bother, I don't know.

That's a very coarse rip saw. Progressive pitch might be a little help on one like yours, on what I consider a more or less 'standard' rip of 5 - 5.5 TPI I don't see the need.

Were I to ever own a 3.5 tpi rip saw I'd probably just make a nick with a chisel to help her settle in and get started. If such a saw bounced around at the beginning of a cut it would look like a rabid beaver got a hold of the board.

 

[condeesteso]

Thanks all, there does seem to be a consensus. My view now is to look more closely at the original tooth profile (at heel, they look untouched) and probably replicate that, see how that goes and as and when, maybe adjust in later sharpenings. I could separately experiment on a basket case but this one is too good to mess with I think.
But the compound of fleam and slope is certainly referred to a lot - searching 'hand saw tooth geometry' will confirm this. Here's a couple of images I picked up at Blackburn Tools:

I'd say these images are typical of any cross-cut saw geometry spoken of, so it has clearly been thought about over the years. Maybe I have an inquisitive mind, but as we work using sharp edges and on all other tools edge geometry is considered (sometimes quite a lot), it interests me. It's obviously interested others here too as several of you have tried various configurations, if only to conclude it doesn't make much (or enough) difference.

The sensible thing is hand it over to my local saw doctor... That's right, there aren't any.

ps - the norse woodsmith link is excellent BB, well worth a read, thanks.

 

[Jacob]

Evidence? Never heard of it until partaking in forums such as this, never seen it on any of the many saws I've encountered, old and new, never felt the need when actually using a rip saw.
Just another myth which beginners hope might be the secret of success.

Your ignorance covers many things, Jacob, and proves little about anything than yourself.

As I recall, you once didn't know about scrub planes either, calling them yet another toolie myth, and yet you now enjoy using them.

Us "toolies" are quite happy to educate others, but you are a particularly slow and bad mannered pupil.

Learn more - sources are readily available - or stop pronouncing with self-asserted authority about old tools which you keep claiming to care nothing about.

BugBear

Told off by the head girl again! :lol:
The simple reason why progressive saw tpi wasn't "standard" or commonplace is that the problem which it addresses; starting a cut with a large tooth saw; is easily dealt with by the standard practice of drawing the saw backwards for a few strokes until a kerf is started. I expect it might be handy some of the time, but more often unnecessary.
My view of the scrub plane toolie myth is another topic which I won't go into here, except needless to say BB has misinterpreted it. :roll: We don't have a "yawn" smiley do we?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

So I can easily start a cut by pulling a 3 1/2 tpi saw backwards a few times? :shock: News to me!
Incidentally, I was taught about grinding irons round for "scrub" planes at school. Forty seven years ago - it's hardly a myth.

 

[bugbear]

I'd say these images are typical of any cross-cut saw geometry spoken of, so it has clearly been thought about over the years. Maybe I have an inquisitive mind, but as we work using sharp edges and on all other tools edge geometry is considered (sometimes quite a lot), it interests me. It's obviously interested others here too as several of you have tried various configurations, if only to conclude it doesn't make much (or enough) difference.

The most recent of the 3 classic works on saw maintainance (Holly, Grimshaw, Hodgeson) doesn't explicitly mention "slope" angles at all.

However, he does state that a rip saw needs to be clamped vertical for filing, whereas a cross cut saw doesn't, and he also describes a tooth shape (for ripping) where the front face of the tooth has some fleam, but the rear face is "quite square". This can only be achieved via "slope".

On the matter of progressive/incrementing teeth - Walter Rose refers to his workmen using progressive rake (*), and Sellers also recommends it. Salaman's dictionary refers to rip saws having progressive pitch. For an existing saw, it's easier to change to progressive rake, since it doesn't involve a full retooth.


BugBear

(*) on jargon, be careful with older sources - they use the term "pitch" (as in the pitch of a roof) to mean the angle of the front face of the tooth, whereas nowdays we use "rake" for this, and we use "pitch" to refer to tooth spacing, as in the normal jargon of screw threads.

 

[Jacob]

So I can easily start a cut by pulling a 3 1/2 tpi saw backwards a few times? :shock: News to me!

Well yes thats how it's done. I do it with a 4 tpi rip saw and don't find it a problem. I can see it could help to start with a finer set, but I think the answer to your question "whether or not it's worth the bother, I don't know" is; no it probably isn't unless you have a particularly repetitive task where it would help.

Incidentally, I was taught about grinding irons round for "scrub" planes at school. Forty seven years ago - it's hardly a myth.

What isn't a myth? Not sure what you are talking about.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It's only an hour or so since you were talking about the "scrub plane toolie myth" Do keep up!

 

[Jacob]

It's only an hour or so since you were talking about the "scrub plane toolie myth" Do keep up!

What is it you think I see as a myth?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

My apologies for interrupting the arguments with a comment relating to the original post, but here goes:

One of the best summaries of saw-sharpening information I've come across is a Youtube video by Andy Lovelock called 'Sharpening Western Saws'. At 2 1/4 hours long, I suppose 'summary' is pushing it a bit, but there's an awful lot of very good information in it. Towards the end, he suggests rake and fleam angles for rip and cross-cut filings.

For cross-cuts, he suggests 12 - 16 degrees of Rake, and for Fleam, 20 - 25 degrees for softwoods, and 15 - 20 degrees for hardwoods. For rip saws, Rake of 0 - 8 degrees for softwoods, 6 - 12 degrees for hardwoods, with 0 - 5 degrees of Fleam in either case. (Just for completeness, he also mentions Hybrid saws with 10 degrees of rake and 10 - 17 degrees of fleam, and Mitre saws with 25 degrees of rake and 30 degrees of fleam.)

Significantly, perhaps, he doesn't bother with Slope at all. (However - my take is that some Slope may result in a 'sharper' tooth giving a slightly faster cut and maybe a slightly better finish whe freshly sharpened, but I suspect that since more metal has been removed from the 'back' of the tooth cutting edge, the saw will dull quicker. Swings and roundabouts, as always!)

Effects of changes in rake he summarises as follows - less rake for softer woods, faster cuts but harder to start, more rake for harder woods, a slower cut but easier to start.

Ditto for fleam - less fleam for harder woods, longer lasting between sharpenings but a rougher finish, more fleam for softer woods, and a smoother finish but needs sharpening more often.

Given that summary, most people should be able to choose the rake and fleam angles that best suit their purpose.

Thanks for the video and the information Andy - extracting that information from all the other sources would have taken hours!

 

[condeesteso]

Interesting Cheshire - I do come across some discussions regarding adjusting angles etc, but the question of slope (at all) is quite polarised I think.
By 'accident' I found a US seller on eBay with a vintage Disston (around £148 as I write) - his descriptive copy includes him talking about his sharpening beliefs, and is maybe interesting (excuse the caps, his text):

item: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DISSTON-No-12 ... 2ecd3a052f

I NOW SEE THAT EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE LECTURING US ON SLOPED GULLETS LATELY ... SOME ACTUALLY ADDING THIS FEATURE AFTER FILING THE SAW - SERIOUSLY ...... HMMM... IT SEEMS THAT THE SAME FOLKS WHO HAVE SPENT THE LAST 5 YEARS CRITICIZING THE METHODS I USE ... REFERRING TO THEM AS "GIMMICKRY" AND SUCH ..... WOULD LIKE YOU TO "PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN" AND HOPEFULLY FORGET WHAT THEY HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN TELLING YOU. BECAUSE NOW... WITH THE BETTY CROCKER RECIPE BOOK OPEN IN FRONT OF THEM AND A VISE THAT TILTS THEY ARE INSTRUCTING THAT THERE IS NO BLACK MAGIC INVOLVED AND PROCLAIMING THAT THEY TOO FILE "SLOPED GULLETS" ...... AND THERE IS EVEN ONE WHO CAN FILE "SLOPPED GULLETS". HAVING BEEN ADDED ... LIKE AN AFTERTHOUGHT ..... FOLLOWING THEIR MACHINE REPLICATED FILING
THIS IS JUST TOO COMICAL AS I CANNOT HELP BUT TO BE REMINDED OF "SELF DISCOVERY" IN ADOLESCENCE ... WHICH WAS BY THE WAY ..... SOMETIME AFTER I LEARNED MY METHODS FOR FILING SAWS.

(OH MY)

WELL THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION - WILL KNOW THAT ALTHOUGH THERE IS SOME BENEFIT OF THE DEEPER GULLET .... THE BEAUTY IS NOT IN THE GULLET ITSELF ... BUT RATHER, IN THE FREEDOM THIS DISCIPLINE GIVES THE SKILLED, "EXPERIENCED IN THE ART" FILER TO CONFIGURE A SAW PRECISELY FOR THE TASK IT IS ASKED TO DO.

THE PART THAT TELLS YOU WHAT TO DO WITH THIS DISCIPLINE .... JUST DOESN'T SEEM TO BE MENTIONED IN THE BETTY CROCKER RECIPE BOOK

PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN I USE THE TERM "SLOPED GULLETS" I AM REFERRING MAINLY TO A DISCIPLINE OF FILING A SAW THAT PRODUCES THIS GULLET SHAPE .... RATHER THAN THE GULLET SHAPE ITSELF. THIS OLD SCHOOL DISCIPLINE ALLOWS THE ACCOMPLISHED FILER THE FULL 3 DIMENSIONAL FREEDOM TO CONFIGURE THE TEETH FOR OPTIMAL EFFICIENCY IN ANY TYPE OF WOOD. THIS IS WHERE THE REAL BEAUTY LIES .... AND IS SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE ...... IN THE RESTRICTIVE 2 DIMENSIONAL WORLD .... THE "NEW FANGLED" WAY OF FILING A SAW IS LIMITED TO. THIS STYLE WAS ADAPTED TO REPLICATE THE FILING OF SAWS BY A MACHINE .... EARLY IN THE 20TH CENTURY BECAUSE THEY WERE UNABLE TO DESIGN A MACHINE THAT COULD REPLICATE THE TRADITIONAL HAND FILING. IT WAS FASTER ..... BUT IN MY OPINION, THIS WAS THE ONLY ADVANTAGE, AS THE RESULTS LIMIT THE SAW .... TO THE GENERIC CONFIGURATIONS.

Bit over-the-top for an item description, but beats many sellers here who take one dodgy pic and add 5 words...!

Made a new longer saw vice, had a quick look again at the S&J - the steel does feel and sound very hard/springy (tell by the 'note' coming off the file). Pics later.

p.s. just got a Tyzack & Turner backsaw - Mammoth 'Nonpareil' trademark. I am sure it's early 20th C although they were continued after the War. Pics of that also later - it's a beauty!

 

[Richard T]

Could it be an American thing? ... sloping, I mean. And if this is as described - a traditional saw vice,

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365021480/

maybe it has encouraged sloping fleam for Americorns over the years. Just a wild theory. I know that I couldn't get on with one of these, I'm a straight across kind of chap; although I do like the cam idea.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Two of the saws I bought new in my early days of woodworking in the mid 1980s were a 26" 7tpi crosscut and 8" dovetail saw, both by Tyzack, sons and Turner plc (as they were then) Nonpareil elephant brand. Very good saws that have served me well, slightly let down by the 1980s machine-made stained beech handles. So Tyzacks were still going in the 1980s (just).

More recently, I aquired courtesy of Ebay a little pistol-grip dovetail saw marked Thos Turner and Co, and also stamped Gamages. It's pre-1920 since it has split nuts, and it made me wonder if it's the same 'Turner'.

(I did rehandle the crosscut many years ago, before the days of the interweb and readily available handle patterns, and made a bit of a bodge of it. One thing I got wrong was to saw the blade slot slightly off-straight, so the handle is at about 5 degrees to the blade. Oddly, it doesn't seem to matter - the saw works fine and tracks a line with no bother at all! Another replacement is scheduled, though, to get a more comfortable grip and shapelier profile - and better alignment!)

 

[MIGNAL]

Douglas, I'd like to see a pic of your Tyzack backsaw. I recently acquired a 14" Tyzack back saw that obviously has some age to it. It's quite a weighty saw with a Beech handle, shaped when many of the makers put a bit of effort into that sort of thing.
The Tyzack came in along with a R.Groves dovetail saw (very nice) and a couple of small panel saws. One of my better days!

 

[condeesteso]

I've just started a thread on the Tyzack & Turner Mignal - with a few pics. I hadn't realised they went as late as the 80s Cheshire. It's a really fine saw I think, indeed quite heavy and a big change after the super-light newer saws.
I only discovered that Gamages used to be a big tool supplier in London (maybe elsewhere too?). I associate them with a toy/model shop (Holborn Road maybe?). But back in the mid 20th C they seemed better known for tools.
I'm keen to know more about the T&T saws, so please joint t'other thread - Tyzack & Turner backsaws.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Sorry this was a week or two ago, but...

... my new Japanese rip saw is progressive pitch (tighter nearest the handle). I haven't got used to starting the cut that end yet, so I don't know if it helps.

... I've just won this on eBay:

I probably paid over the odds, but they're fairly rare this side of the pond. The seller mentions that some backsaws don't fit. Do others have a problem with this?

Still excited, as I've wanted one for ages!

E.

 

[KevM]

I've got a Paramo from 1944 and I've got one Disston backsaw that won't fit and a S&J that's snug; the sawbacks/spines bind in the clamp. I shouldn't grumble it's in brand new (1944) condition and was advertised as a sheet metal vice, so I picked it up for not much more than the shipping price.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I've got one S+J that i'm slightly worried about - 12 or 13pt if memory serves. My other -'goto' crosscut has a steel back (but it's got the right feel so never mind), and I think it's marginally thinner. That said, the Japanese crosscut I got at Christmas is truly amazing, so how long I persevere with Western ones remains to be seen...

 

[KevM]

For the Disston I've got a stick with a slot and hole, the hole was an upgrade inspired by Paul Sellers, previous versions were classed as consumables because they split into kindling. The improved stick design with slot and hole now lasts long enough for me to lose them...

http://paulsellers.com/2012/02/the-r-groves-saw-done/

I do find that the lower working position, clamped in my bench vice, is not very comfortable but I just need to find something of the right height to perch on rather than stooping over it.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I don't think I have a bench edge thin enough to take the vice clamp directly. So I'm thinking workmate on an evening in fromt of the telly when everyone else's out (Our TV isn't in a 'posh' room, deliberately!).

Paul Sellers' idea is elegantly simple (I see what you mean about the value of the hole, too), but I agree with you about the working height. Even sitting down, that wouldn't be too comfortable, and anyway the best of my work light is at the wrong end of the bench.

I need to make a twin-screw, drop-in jobbie really, to get that nice extra height for dovetails etc. It would be good for this too.

My only mod to Paul S' design would probably be some newspaper taped on top to catch the filings and keep them off the bench.