tuning handsaws

[condeesteso]

I recently got an old Spear & Jackson panel saw 22" 10tpi and it is generally excellent but a little dull around the middle, teeth at toe and heel are excellent and there is no significant fall in tooth height in the central area.
So it needs a sharpen/tune and I'm fine with that but began wondering about exactly what angles etc - I mean tuning it a little to best suit what I will use it for. I read Matthew's (WH) treatise on the topic and generally looked around. The article on Renaissance Woodworker is quite good regarding tuning for different uses, but does not mention 'slope' (where the file rises say 20 degrees pointing towards the cut edge).
The saw in question is a crosscut and will stay that way. I will use it only in hardwoods and prefer cleaner / precise to fast (within reason).
If a fairly standard fleam is 20 degrees, the introduction of slope as much as another 20 degrees would make a big difference to support metal around the tooth tip - should I give this any slope at all, reduce the fleam angle to say 15 degrees (hardwoods)?
Thoughts please.
Meanwhile, here it is - it's a 'Spearior' model which I suppose is good. The cheap ones were known as 'Fearior' :roll:
I can tell it's a good one because it has a lot of words on it. Seriously if James Patterson had this many words he'd call it a book.

O.K. - now let's talk saws...

 

[Jacob]

spear-jackson-saw-is-it-a-record-t74083.html

I'd just sharpen it if I were you, and see how it goes.
It doesn't do to be be too analytical - armchair theorising can be a bottomless pit. :roll:

 

[MickCheese]

It can be both interesting and useful to theorise.

Sometimes understanding why something does what it does helps with how to use it.

Don't know the newer to the question though.

Mick

 

[bugbear]

I'd just sharpen it if I were you, and see how it goes.

That's what he's asking about.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

I'm saying sharpen it as it is. Drop the file in and stay close to what's there. Sharpening is one thing, modifying it to suit some theoretical notion is another thing altogether.

 

[MIGNAL]

It's all a compromise. You can go to a greater fleam angle, it will be 'sharper' but will dull quicker. Not unlike sharpening a chisel at 20 degrees rather than 30. Same with rake, speed vs ease of starting the cut. I once tried sharpening a saw (16 TPI) rip cut to see how it worked using it as a crosscut, comparing it to one that was a dedicated crosscut. There was a difference but that difference was much smaller than I thought it would be. A touch slower and very slightly more break out with the one that was filed rip. Most important thing seems to be sharp.

 

[Richard T]

Not sure what you mean by 'slope' Douglas ..... rake?

 

[condeesteso]

Sorry Richard, Matthew uses the term slope to refer to the vertical component in fleam angle, I don't mean rake at all. Isn't fleam a compound angle? - generally say 20 degrees horizontal and 20 vertical? I'm not expecting to alter rake at all, and really this saw just needs a lick over anyway. I'll probably start as Jacob suggests by replicating what is there (judged from new teeth at toe)... but I have a few saws to deal with over time, and as I almost always work hardwoods and would happily gain clean/precise at cost of fast (as said, within reason) I am interested in adjusting angles to best suit what I do. I'll assume that a 'standard' rake & fleam is an all-round compromise?
Very pleased with this Spearior saw - esp. as Jacob says (elsewhere) it was a bit of a sod to sharpen, I take that as a good sign.
I have another S&J (22" 8tpi) with apple handle and the brass strengthener underside of handle. It's a beauty too. I have one later Disston and for a while have felt that Disstons seem to have a reputation that is sometimes bigger than the actual tool. I reckon these old(er) S&Js are seriously good, and somewhat overlooked.
Anyway, for clarity, if fleam is a compound angle I could alter both components... I know I needn't, but what if I actually did?? :shock:

Just for info here's the bit from the WH notes on saw sharpening:

Crosscut Saws
Sharpening crosscut saws is a little more challenging, but nothing to worry about. Start by planing the tops of your supporting timbers to an angle of about 20 degrees, this will set the slope for you and make it easy to keep it consistent.

[by the way, I don't want this to be about terminology - provided we are all talking about the same thing what it is actually called never really interested me ]

edit - sorry Mignal, bang on the point (pardon pun) - I have previously done OK with a rip on cross-cuts (esp the higher tooth counts) nbut the opposite is not good. So reducing and playing with the angles might be interesting.

 

[custard]

Meanwhile, here it is - it's a 'Spearior' model which I suppose is good. The cheap ones were known as 'Fearior'
I can tell it's a good one because it has a lot of words on it. Seriously if James Patterson had this many words he'd call it a book.

 

[undergroundhunter]

All my saws are sharpened rip bar one 5TPI crosscut (see Mr Sellers video on saw sharpening), I find this makes for easy touch up with no detrimental loss in break out or speed. I agree with MIGNAL in the most important thing is sharp. I never hurts to experiment though that's just what works for me.

Matt

 

[Corneel]

As far as I understand, slope is used in very coarse saws to create more space in the gullet to be able to carry more sawdust. In a fine toothed saw like yours it's mostly of academic value. I'd say use a standard crosscut patern. Something like 15 degrees rake, 25 degrees fleam and no slope. And nobody is going to feel much difference when you vary these numbers 5 degrees.

 

[bugbear]

I only know of two people who've thought much about sloped gullets - Bob Smalser and Brent Beach.

Smalser:

http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/sma ... _857.shtml

Beach:

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/sawjig ... llets.html

However, googling to pick up those links revealed that Norse Woodsmith has also (in his saw making journey) done some good thinking.

http://norsewoodsmith.com/content/slope ... sharpening

I don't know of any other/better references.

On changing saws - altering angles (rake, fleam or slope) is easy, altering pitches involves a full re-tooth. Giving a cross cut a bit more (or less) fleam is pretty simple.

I think it's Smalser who has pointed out that in a "perfect" world you'd need a different saw for virtually every type of cut on every type of wood - all sa filing is a compromise unless your work is quite tediously repetitive.

BugBear

 

[MIGNAL]

Not many saw sharpeners bother with sloping gullets. Before I started sharpening saws I must have used over 10 different saw doctors (over more than 35 years). I'm pretty sure none of them came back with sloping gullets and I was always stipulating crosscut sharpening. I've only done one saw with sloping gullets, which was a low TPI. It does make things a bit harder because it's another angle to juggle with.

 

[bugbear]

I've only done one saw with sloping gullets, which was a low TPI. It does make things a bit harder because it's another angle to juggle with.

If I were to try it, my first step would be to get/make a sloping saw vice.

BugBear

 

[Richard T]

Aha. Thanks for clarifying re slope.

I remember (just) when I first swatted up on saw sharpening and read about it ... I must have soon forgotten it though and paid more attention to getting everything else right. :shock:

Getting an even fleam angle every time and especially even both left and right with even rake too is a stringent mental exercise enough without another angle to think about. And as is said above, I don't think it makes one jot of difference with smaller saws or bench saws; the tips do most of the work and unless cutting something extremely wide - wider than is practical with the average hand saw - I don't think it is needed for clearing the cut of sawdust.

(I have always thought that a 15 degree rake is a bit wussy ... if you are quite ok with the practice of sawing and cleanly starting a cut; closer to 5 degrees is certainly more efficient ... but that might be just me.)

 

[Trafalgar]

That's a good-looking saw and is set up just fine for sawing seasoned wood (hardwoods and softwoods) meant for furnituremaking. I wouldn't change a thing. There is no 10 pt. saw in the world regardless of tooth geometry that will leave a finished edge on fine furniture components. Saw cuts are dressed to the line with a hand plane. You ought to be able to saw a very weak 32nd of an inch away from the line with a standard S&J 10 pt. panel saw with the factory set up. A few plane passes will take care of the rest.

If you worked on a construction site before the advent of power saws, where all the lumber to erect a structure was processed by hand, there MIGHT be some advantage to sloping gullets but even then it would be minimal. Sometimes "techniques" die out for a reason.

I have used a saw with sloping gullets and it was a yawner. The Gates of Sawing Heaven most certainly did not open. Anybody claiming otherwise, I fear, are merely demonstrating the placebo effect and generally making it more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[MIGNAL]

Agreed. Sometimes you get the feeling that people sharpen saws using techniques that are there just to impress, to seem clever and expert. As though a slight change in angle or technique will produce something quite magical. I've sharpened and experimented on enough saws to come to the conclusion that bog standard techniques/methods are more than adequate. Even the slightly simplified approach of filing every saw rip isn't the worst idea in the world. Better someone uses that approach than a slightly dull crosscut saw.
Sharp is where it's at.

 

[bugbear]

Agreed. Sometimes you get the feeling that people sharpen saws using techniques that are there just to impress, to seem clever and expert. As though a slight change in angle or technique will produce something quite magical. I've sharpened and experimented on enough saws to come to the conclusion that bog standard techniques/methods are more than adequate. Even the slightly simplified approach of filing every saw rip isn't the worst idea in the world. Better someone uses that approach than a slightly dull crosscut saw.
Sharp is where it's at.

I do find that progressive (AKA incremental) pitch is rather effective, and used to be standard (i.e. not considered fancy) back in the day when rip saws were used in anger. It's also easy to maintain (although creating it involves a full retoothing).

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Agreed. Sometimes you get the feeling that people sharpen saws using techniques that are there just to impress, to seem clever and expert. As though a slight change in angle or technique will produce something quite magical. I've sharpened and experimented on enough saws to come to the conclusion that bog standard techniques/methods are more than adequate. Even the slightly simplified approach of filing every saw rip isn't the worst idea in the world. Better someone uses that approach than a slightly dull crosscut saw.
Sharp is where it's at.

I do find that progressive (AKA incremental) pitch is rather effective, and used to be standard (i.e. not considered fancy) back in the day when rip saws were used in anger. It's also easy to maintain (although creating it involves a full retoothing).

BugBear

I don't believe it was ever standard - it was always a fancy notion.
Evidence? Never heard of it until partaking in forums such as this, never seen it on any of the many saws I've encountered, old and new, never felt the need when actually using a rip saw.
Just another myth which beginners hope might be the secret of success.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I've only owned one rip, a beautiful old Philadelphia Disston. It has 3 1/2 t.p.i. at one end and 4 1/2 t.p.p. at the other. It makes the cut very slightly easier to start - whether or not it's worth the bother, I don't know.