TS-250 Table Saw - trials & tribulations of the dilettante

[glynster]

I'm perhaps Britain's newest and most nervous first table saw owner. A couple of months ago I decided that i'd like to build my own coffee table and - being like a lot of you I'm guessing, got distracted into setting up a complete small home workshop instead and all this while I am supposed to be taking time out to work full time renovating our "new" neglected 1950's house - anyway, suffice to say I am smitten with the woodworking mini-workshop project which is living in a rather small single car garage. Pic below - ignore the mess I'm mid table assembly project and still moving in.

And my bespoke mobile "wood shed"...

I have a brand new Axminster TS-250 which I'm currently fettling and trying to make sense of. The thing that mainly concerns me is the height of the riving knife - or to be more exact, the fact that the height of the riving knife as the saw came out of the box (and it's obvious that a fair amount of factory setup had been attempted) necessitated the blade being very high above the workpiece in order for the guard to clear the work. Typical, this (below) would be the MINIMUM height that the blade could go for a 20mm workpiece as pictured...

Just about everything I've read and every video I have seen recommends having the blade now higher than the topmost gullet above the workpiece to prevent kickback (something which as a complete beginner scares the brown out of me). Having seen photos of others saws I concluded that the riving knife was definitely far too low in relation to the blade and since it carries the blade guard it needed raising in relation to the blade to allow a greater clearance and safer operation - am I right in doing this?

The riving knife is held in place with a couple of bolts pictured below so I loosened them and raised it as much as I could - any higher and it would be held in place with just 1 bolt and I dont want that for safety reasons in case vibrations cause it to tilt forwards and fire shrapnel at me like a live-fire recreation of the D Day landings. I prefer the idea of a mechanical prevention of it tilting (2 bolts) rather than a solitary bolt.

Riving knife fitting

So, this is the new height of the blade guard - as high as I could get it...

Which allows the blade to sit like this through the workpiece - is this a safe height? Its as low as I can get it...

A "just" clearance with the guard...

Do you guys think that this is acceptable and safe? Ideally I understand it should be lower but this would then necessitate removing the guard and I dont want to do that - for me its a saw bench and not a dado cutting, blind rebate trimmer - I have a router table for that - so I dont anticipate needing to ever remove the guard. Trouble is with this setup is that the guard sits higher and cover less of the blade - especially with thicker workpieces like this...

I just feel I am making a schoolboy error somewhere as something still doesn't feel right with the setup. On Steve Maskery's advice I have checked the riving knife alignment with the blade and it is exactly flush with the flat disc of the blade on the ripping side and about 1/16 proud on the crosscut side - its a little thicker and so I figured it would be better proud on the crosscut side since the cut would likely be finished on most crosscuts by the time the riving knife comes into contact - unlike the ripping side - is that sensible or a schoolboy error?

The other fun I have had has been with the ripfence which was binding in towards the blade a good couple of mil over its length as pictured...

Amazingly, there was no adjustment for that on the ripfence clamping mechanism and while I could have drilled for a couple of grub screws I have no tap and die set to tap it

So I went all primal and filed down one of the alloy feet with a hone a few thous at a time until the fence set square when clamped - slightly awkward as it pulls more square when clamped but I got it about right.

Now I am going to try and align ripfence ruler exactly to the blade - any advice would be appreciated and I am happy to document if you're not all already bored to death.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Erm, see that dirty great big bolt on the underside of your clamp casting? What happens to the fence if you slacken that off a bit.....?

 

[glynster]

Steve, that simply clamps the fence to the fence mechanism using a platevthat slides in the T slot

 

[Steve Maskery]

Exactly! So you slacken it off and then tap it left or right to square up the fence, no filing necessary. Or am I missing something?
S

 

[marcros]

I seem to recall from my old kity 419 that there is no adjustment like you have found. Anyhow, looks like you have sorted that element.

Your riving knife looks to be set too tar away- 5mm is about right. I would check another measurement- thickness of the blade plate, and teeth and the riving knife. The riving knofe should be between the two. It shouldnt stick out on either side of the blade. On the kity model it was a thick knife- you may find out that it is similar on the axi, so requires a very thick blade to suit it.

 

[glynster]

Steve the fence sits in there EAXCTLY all the way along its length - in fact its a little too snug and takes a lot of effort to adjust the length of the fence - i.e. a mallet - so there is absolutely zero play that way. The only way I could possibly make play that way would be to reduce the thickness of the entire fence.

Marcros - there is no fore/aft adjustment on the riving knife - just up and down and the whole blade/knife/saw setup is as it came from the factory.

 

[Spindle]

Hi

I think I'd be inclined to re-make the riving knife, it's only a piece of steel plate isn't it? Make it to the same shape with the exception of extending the material around the guard hinge upwards and raise the hinge point to allow stock to pass under the guard when the blade is set at optimal.

Regards Mick

 

[Steve Maskery]

Hmm. OK. But it doesn't sound right to me. We must be missing something somewhere somehow.
If you decide to remake the RK, use gauge plate rather than mild steel, it is far more likely to stay flat. And if you are going to do that I suggest you seriously consider making a SUVA-style guard to go with it, it will solve all those height-related problems.

 

[glynster]

Yes the manual is notably sketchy on the subject of the ripfence - it just says to check that it is paralell and yet mentions nothing about adjustment which is conspicuous by its absence since it then describes how to adjust the blade and riving knife. Seems a bad state of affairs that in order to learn woodwork one must first become an amateur engineer I might go ahead and produce a new riving knife when I can work out how to - placing it high like this greatly increases the sideways flex - and the weight of the guard and the hose only make that worse. I will google the SUVA guard - this deosn't seem suitable - bad design. Being a nervous first time table saw user I really could have done without having to essentially modify that which is supposed to be expertly designed and signed off by the health and safety exec - not how I wanted to do this at all.

 

[Rhossydd]

Erm, see that dirty great big bolt on the underside of your clamp casting? What happens to the fence if you slacken that off a bit.....?

That was the recommended method in the instructions for the TS200, but that advice has been dropped in the TS250. As Glynster says, they're a very tight fit anyway with no play to adjust the angle.
On my TS200 there is enough play in the mounting of the guide rail itself to make the fence parallel to the blade.

 

[glynster]

Yep, zero play in the guide now - in fact I have had to spray with ptfe to get it to budge with a mallet. Luckily, there were 2 small "feet" on the alloy guide which made filing them down respectively to make left and right adjustment quick and easy - the fence is millimeter accurate from the blade now (tested) and exactly paralell on all but the furthest part of the right hand extension table which is itself three sheets to the wind and needs the top replacing with a sheet of ply to achieve flat.

Do you think the blade is relatively safe to use a little high as I now have it?

 

[Steve Maskery]

I will google the SUVA guard - this deosn't seem suitable - bad design. Being a nervous first time table saw user I really could have done without having to essentially modify that which is supposed to be expertly designed and signed off by the health and safety exec - not how I wanted to do this at all.

I thought you had my tablesaw DVDs. Watch the Safety Accessories one again (WE8), there are plans for a SUVA-style guard there and you don't need to be an engineer, it's all nuts and bolts, nothing more.

S

 

[glynster]

Yes I do Steve - order 1624 ;-) I just need to rewatch them - affable and endlessly informative as you are it's hard to persuade the Mrs that you're better viewing than Game of Thrones - but I will rewatch the one on the guard I did see that (just never noted the name of it). I'd assumed at the time that I wouldn't need it but now I am doubting that as the sideways play on this riving knife if a bit wrrying - I dnt see how it can do its job when it flexes 5mm either way with finger pressure - prob due to the raised height to be fair to Axminster.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Yes I do Steve - order 1624 ;-) I just need to rewatch them - affable and endlessly informative as you are it's hard to persuade the Mrs that you're better viewing than Game of Thrones...

:shock:

That's women for you, no idea of priorities. I'll never understand women if I live to be 56.

:roll:

 

[deema]

The advise you have received is all excellent. A couple of things I would like to suggest. The riving knife should be thinner than the cut created by the teeth of the blade. The teeth will be thicker than the width of the plate or disc they are mounted to. The riving knife must be thinner than the cut width to avoid any accidents due to the wood hitting and stopping on the knife and slightly thicker than the disc to which the teeth are attached. The reason is that the riving knife is there to stop the wood pushing in on the rotating disc which causes the wood to be ejected. You don't want a riving knife that is the same thickness as the disc, or indeed thinner or it's function is reduced / eliminated. The riving knife must be position so that it's centre is on the centre if the blade, this creates a situation where a bit of the riving knife is proud on each side if the blade, and is the safest situation.

The best policy is to have a fence that ever so slightly canters away from the blade, however I know most advise is to have one that is parallel with the blade. The former is the safest and if you review the old manuals from Wadkin etc this is what they advise. The reason is again to stop the wood being pushed into the blade. If the fence is slightly canting into the blade as you push the wood through it can get trapped and be ejected.

In all cases, the best policy is to add a wooden face to your fence. The wooden fence should be higher than the existing fence and equal in height to the largest wood you will cut. This offers the best support and stops wood from 'wobbling' when you pass through wood that is taller than your fence. The wooden fence should not go the full length of the existing fence, but should stop just after the teeth of the blade first stat to cut the wood. The reason is that it leaves a space for any wood that breaks off / the cut piece to go and not become trapped and ejected. The easiest way to correct your fence is to make the correction with the wooden fence, and compensate for any misalignment as long as the existing fence does not change its angle when you make adjustments. The wooden fence will also be sacrificial as we all have I'm sure adjusted the fence with the blade rotating and the two have met! Use 9 or 12mm plywood or anything that is stable. MDF is also good.

 

[Steve Maskery]

I'm in the camp that says the fence should be dead parallel, for the simple reason that a bit of clearance on the right might stop you getting burn when ripping, but it means that if you ever use the fence on the left, for example when bevelling, that clearance makes things worse not better. The same thing applies if you use jigs such as my tenon jig, where one cut is to the left and the other to the right.
+1 for a short rip fence though.
S

 

[Bluekingfisher]

No offence mate , but it does seem just another example of the cheap and nasty equipment we have to endure here in the UK. You pay good money for kit only to find it not fit for purpose.

The fence and guard on a TS are primary requirements to ensure safe and accurate work yet what you have is limited in its functionality.

We are of course partly to blame, if we were to return or stop buying the poorly made equipment then hopefully the retailers would require and demand better quality from the manufacturer. We don't don't even have the luxury of buying after market accessories for TS here in the UK.

The US market is just busting with after market kit, most of it made in the Pacific rim, so why don't we have access to it here, or even across Europe. Until this changes expect to have to fiddle around for yonks in the hope of achieving mediocrity.

Good luck anyway

David

 

[glynster]

I am generally happy with the quality and design of the saw but just amazed that it would arrive in an unsafe condition and yet not have in-built adjustment to make it safe. If you market and brand a saw as "hobby" quality - and Axminster are very specific about that, then you surely accept a certain duty of care for amateur use - seems a legal liability to me as it implies its MORE suited to amateur use. If I just followed their setup instructions and used the saw out of the box then I'd now be using a saw where the fence would be leaning sharply into the blade and if I had a serious injury, they could hardly claim that I should have known better since marketing it as hobby suggests it is suited to amateur use.

Now, if I had bought a build your own Table Saw "kit" then that would be another matter - but can you imagine buying your Mrs a "hobby" sewing machine that would shoot a needle into her face at 100 mph unless she somehow knew how to file down and adjust sections of it and create a new metal part. What we should do in the case of kickback due to bad out of the box setup is seek damages. Any tool, should be either safe to use (if used appropriately) either straight out of the box or have clear instructions and adequate in-built adjustment to set it so - otherwise the manufacturer is taking on an extra duty of care and implying suitability by marketing the tool as for hobby (i.e. non-professional and thus non-expert) use.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

I concur, yet why should the manufacturer take any additional steps to improve the equipment is sells when we accept it as is and end up having to fiddle with it. This of course provides the manufacturer with an "outer" claiming the attempt at making the saw good was the root of the incident.

For the sake of a few extra quid (which could be added to the sale price) surely the designers could ensure there was at least scope to adjust the relevant part. And to be honest the only parts needing adjustment for safety are the two parts you are having issue with.

I have a US style cabinet saw which allows for micro adjustment of the RV by means of four little set screws allowing for lateral adjustment of the RV. I reckon the 60mm x 60mm x 3mm plate and the four set screws would cost pennies rather than pounds and yet is very effective, so why not provide a similar set up for all RV brackets.

The only option open to you regarding the fence may be to add a sacrificial type face to the fence and shim it accordingly. This will of course throw your measurement guide out by the thickness of the SF, although a self adhesive replacement tape measure would solve the issue if your existing measurement gauge cannot be adjusted.

 

[custard]

Let me see if I've got this right.

You quit work to focus full time on renovating a house.

Then you decide to build a coffee table.

But you get distracted into setting up a home workshop.

You buy a cheap table saw, even though you know nothing about using one.

It doesn't work properly, so you get stuck in with a file.

No disrespect, but dude, you need to S-L-O-W D-O-W-N.