Trying to dentify the Avro aircraft this instrument is from ?

[toolsntat]

So, I know this is a Beam Approach Visual Indicator, possibly from WWII and Cold War RAF Avro aircraft the big question is how far can we pin it down to which aircraft control panel it was fitted in.
Much information here
https://aeroantique.com/products/beam-approach-visual-indicator-ref-10q-4-raf?variant=5234829983774This is the one, which has a serial number on the rear, manufactured by Sangamo Weston.
Cheers Andy

 

[doctor Bob]

Fitted in the Lancaster and many more I suspect, not sure it's possible to say it's from a ............ as the same instrument was fitted to a quite a few planes.
edit, sorry just read link

 

[AES]

I think your title can be misleading Andy. I'm NOT being "sniffy" but apart from the fact that as per the blurb this instrument was fitted in Lancasters (and therefore probably in Lincolns and maybe even Shackletons too) the instrument itself has little or nothing to do with Avro itself.

As doctor Bob has already said, aircraft manufacturers then - and still very much so today - do little "self-building" apart from manufacturing actual airframes. They then "add in" all sorts of gizmos, ranging from engines "down" to light bulbs, and just about everything in between.

A few manufacturers back then did make both engines and airframes (famous examples would be Bristol and DeHavilland) but this was unusual, and even in DH's case, DH engines mainly "only" extended into their light aircraft range (though the early Comet airliners had DH jet engines).

 

[toolsntat]

Ok, so title changes done.
I'm only going on the minimal amount of information out there but it all says used in Avro aircraft.
The one I linked to seems very knowledgeable about their subject but who says they are right or wrong.
I'm bit of an optimist and like to take on a challenge so I'm just trying to narrow my search parameters.
There may just be hereabouts someone who knows.

Cheers Andy

 

[Wildman]

So, I know this is a Beam Approach Visual Indicator, possibly from WWII and Cold War RAF Avro aircraft the big question is how far can we pin it down to which aircraft control panel it was fitted in.
Much information here
https://aeroantique.com/products/beam-approach-visual-indicator-ref-10q-4-raf?variant=5234829983774This is the one, which has a serial number on the rear, manufactured by Sangamo Weston.
Cheers Andy
View attachment 125313

 

[toolsntat]

View attachment 125370

Not sure if you had written anything in your reply Wildman but nothing is showing this end.
Cheers Andy

 

[profchris]

Over 7,000 Lancasters were made, and the other types to which this was fitted must mean at least 10,000 of these instruments were manufactured.

So I can't see any way of telling which of them this instrument was fitted unless ...

... you comb through any surviving tech logs which survive and are lucky enough to find the serial number of this instrument. Then you'd know not only what type it was fitted to, but also which particular aircraft!

 

[AES]

Absolutely agree profchris.

AND Andy, they may not have used the same terminology then as we do now, but today we'd call this instrument a LRU ("Line Replaceable Unit"). Therefore if that particular instrument went unserviceable while fitted to one particular aircraft it would have been removed and replaced with another one from stores (same P/No of course). Meanwhile the busted one would go to the instruments workshop (or possibly back to the instrument manufacturer).

Once repaired and tested out OK, it would then be sent to stores (complete with a serviceable tag), ready for the next time that instrument broke down.

So if the squadron to which the aircraft had been originally fitted had, say, 20 aircraft in total, you can easily see that the next time a Beam Approach Indicator broke down and needed replacing, it would be, in this example, a 20:1 chance that it would go back onto the same aircraft to which it was originally fitted when that aircraft left the factory new.

To further compound your difficulty Andy, if, as appears likely, this type of instrument was used on other aircraft types as well as Lancasters, maybe only Avro types, but possibly types from other manufacturers as well, then your chances become even more mathematically difficult (I'd say "impossible" actually.

The only possible route out of your problem I can think of was IF this type of instrument was always accompanied by it's own Log Book. (I say IF 'cos I don't know, but think it highly unlikely, because back in WWII days and into the 1950s & 60s, it was unusual for relatively small/cheap/simple items such as this instrument to have their own log books. AFAIK own Log Books were normally reserved for major items such as aero engines , landing gear leg assemblies, etc). But if it was the practice then to have individual Log Books - and IF you can find the Log Book that belongs to that particular instrument! - then the Log Book should list the dates on and off and details of every aircraft to which it was ever fitted (and a fair bit of other data too).

But old though I now am, I only started my RAF training back in 1961, so personally I just don't know what the documentation standards for such instruments would have been back in WWII.

As said at the beginning of this thread my own guess is that it will be a matter of pure luck, and only luck, if you can solve your puzzle mate.

But anyway, good luck

 

[profchris]

I suspect that record keeping in WW2 bomber squadrons focused on essentials. The average life of a Lancaster was less than 10 missions, and the kind of record keeping now required only came in with civil air transport. The question back then was whether it would fly, not whether all the paperwork was complete!

 

[AES]

Yeah profchris, I suspect that you're 100% right! The only hope I see is that if that instrument fitted other Avro aircraft (e.g. Lincoln, even Lancastrian, York, + Shackleton even?), and even "better" from the point of Andy's search, other non-Avro a/c, the Q really becomes a mixture of "how soon did the RAF start "modern/civil aircraft records keeping"? coupled with "how long was that type of instrument in service in some type of RAF aircraft somewhere?"

I can quite imagine that WWII records were just as you say, "get it in the air and bu--er the paperwork", and for example, I was on a front line Lightning squadron in 1964 when we first introduced "Progressive Servicing" (with the extra records that all that entailed). And even then, only the big items like engines had separate Log Books. But I'm pretty sure that the RAF would not have applied any new servicing/records system retrospectively to older types already in service (I don't know but very much doubt it), so as I said, I should think for all the reasons we floated here, poor old Andy's search is going to be well-nigh impossible.

@toolsnthat: Andy, there's a Forum called "PPrune" (google, I've forgotten, sorry, but it's an "obvious" URL): Though mainly for current types and their pilots and engineers, there is a History and Military section/s there, and like here, it's populated by quite a few, shall we say, "older people" (like me)! It may well be worth posting your question there (it's free to join). That should be able to at least confirm or deny that these instruments had their own Log Books - very doubtful as said. That Forum goes under the official name of Professional Pilots Rumour Network.

HTH

Just an idea.

 

[Inspector]

When I was wrenching firebombers starting in 1976, the Grumman TBM, Douglas A26 (both WW2 surplus) along with the Douglas DC-6s from the late 1950s only had airframe, engine and propeller logs. Radios, instruments, starters, generators, wheels etc did not. They came with green tags attached and we recorded serial numbers on/off when working on a snag, any of the certification papers were kept by stores or inspection when received and we attached rejection tags when parts were pulled. Parts going out for overhaul, carburetors for example, going to an overhaul company might be returned or just be exchanged. They went back in stores and be issued to whatever aircraft needed it. As the others have said finding the actual aircraft the instrument was installed on will be a long shot. Best you can hope for are the types they were used on and there were likely many. They may have been an Avro part but could have been used by multiple manufacturers. The internals might have been unique but the mounting size and connections being standardized for interchangeability.

Pete

 

[AES]

Yup, pretty much what I would have expected to be the case this side of the Atlantic back then too - yup as "recent" as 1976 too, Inspector.

Incidentally "wrenching" and in particular "wrenchers" are/were often referred to as "nut stranglers" over here!

 

[profchris]

I was on a front line Lightning squadron in 1964

Not Wattisham by any chance? If so you disrupted several of my school lessons (splendid low level hooliganism!). And I currently live inside the Apache circuit in a house first owned by a Squadron Leader.

 

[AES]

No profchris. Over the Humber and up a bit, N of Hull & Beverley. Leconfield, what used to be called the East Riding of Yorkshire (I think it's closed or perhaps an Army base now).

 

[toolsntat]

Thanks for the input folks and I take on all your information and concerns but I'm not setting out expecting I'll get the absolute answer but, knowing I tried will do me.
I gave this as a present to my other half and she asked what, where and when ? so I thought I'd try here as well as any other avenue any one might suggest.
You mentioned serial number and I have it here... 13087G
Cheers Andy