Might be cheaper than legal costs and a possible fine if the the council decide to instigate proceedings. At least you will have an expert's report and may be able to claim the costs back if you win.
Tree Preservation Order and dead trees
- Thread starter RogerS
- Start date
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powertools
Established Member
From bitter experience with this sort of problem get a written report on the trees condition from an expert send it to the council and do nothing until you have their written approval do nothing until you have written proof that you have been given the approval to proceed.
stuckinthemud
Established Member
Talk to the guys and girls on arbtalk -
Steve Blackdog
Established Member
Wise words.
Sachakins
The most wasted of days is one without woodwork
Be wary of the relying on the government website, councils can and do have provision to override government guidance.
I was about to start work on an integral garage, conversion to home office. All legitimate under permitted development rules. Applied to get building regulations inspector appointment as that's still required even under permitted development.
I then received an email to say permitted development rights had been withdrawn by the council for my area. Not a conservation area, not any TPOs etc, they just removed it.
I am in process of trying to challenge it, as I checked the withdrawn areas and saw nothing.
Ii can apply for a legal letter from the council, to try and protect myself, which would not allow them to challenge it later. If given it removes the councils right to change their mind letter. BUT, they charge a fee of 50% of the basic p,awning application, and still required a le element of elevation plans, materials used, and windows style photos. It's almost the same information needed for full planning application.
I need to get more information off there site, to prove they haven't shown it In a retracted permitted development area.
And yes others have done it over the years.
I was about to start work on an integral garage, conversion to home office. All legitimate under permitted development rules. Applied to get building regulations inspector appointment as that's still required even under permitted development.
I then received an email to say permitted development rights had been withdrawn by the council for my area. Not a conservation area, not any TPOs etc, they just removed it.
I am in process of trying to challenge it, as I checked the withdrawn areas and saw nothing.
Ii can apply for a legal letter from the council, to try and protect myself, which would not allow them to challenge it later. If given it removes the councils right to change their mind letter. BUT, they charge a fee of 50% of the basic p,awning application, and still required a le element of elevation plans, materials used, and windows style photos. It's almost the same information needed for full planning application.
I need to get more information off there site, to prove they haven't shown it In a retracted permitted development area.
And yes others have done it over the years.
Some food for thought, to assess the potential worth of any expense you accrue:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...oads/attachment_data/file/14956/tposguide.pdf
Paragraph 6.7 and footnote 64 (a cite of the relevant case law) are the minimum bits to read.
Precis: the burden of proof of the
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
It's about managing risk. The consequences of being held responsible for illegally cutting down trees subject to a TPO vs £1-200.
Entirely your choice!!
Dibs-h
Established Member
It's somewhat perverse - a dead tree, it's hardly a difficult to diagnose medical condition that requires test, etc. Yet the latter would be how the council seem to be behaving.
It is possible they've had folk try it on in the past and therefore want someone to be held liable if it's a "wind-up".
On the other hand (many) judges aren't stupid and should a case come before them where a homeowner has provided photo\video evidence of a dead tree (maybe even samples), got messed about by a council, and then cut it down with it video'd from start to finish with it being obvious to a 5yr old the tree was dead - I can't see it going against the homeowner.
Yes - there is a risk it could go against the homeowner and a person needs to way that up for themselves. Me? I'd do that.
I'm affected by a tree that has a TPO - the council want a report and a form filling in each time it wants a "trim". The form has no cost, but the report would cost me - a few hundred quid every few years. I just give it a minor trim, to stop branches damaging the roof. And it's not even my tree.
It is possible they've had folk try it on in the past and therefore want someone to be held liable if it's a "wind-up".
On the other hand (many) judges aren't stupid and should a case come before them where a homeowner has provided photo\video evidence of a dead tree (maybe even samples), got messed about by a council, and then cut it down with it video'd from start to finish with it being obvious to a 5yr old the tree was dead - I can't see it going against the homeowner.
Yes - there is a risk it could go against the homeowner and a person needs to way that up for themselves. Me? I'd do that.
I'm affected by a tree that has a TPO - the council want a report and a form filling in each time it wants a "trim". The form has no cost, but the report would cost me - a few hundred quid every few years. I just give it a minor trim, to stop branches damaging the roof. And it's not even my tree.
Ollie78
Established Member
Its crazy how this sort of thing is so common.
My parents wanted to cut down a fairly large probably self seeded tree from their property, so my Dad being an honest gent asked the council if there was a preservation order on it. No there isn`t was the initial reply. However, now we know you want to remove it we will put one on it due to being beneficial to the community etc (the tree was within their garden but did overhang the road), not a listed building, not an area of outstanding beauty, no legitimate reasoning at all.
This was super annoying as they wanted to build something near to it.
Anyway, about a year or so later my Mum came home to see a motorcyclist struggling to remove a giant branch from laying accross the entire road.
Needless to say it had become dangerous so they were allowed to remove it.
Ollie
My parents wanted to cut down a fairly large probably self seeded tree from their property, so my Dad being an honest gent asked the council if there was a preservation order on it. No there isn`t was the initial reply. However, now we know you want to remove it we will put one on it due to being beneficial to the community etc (the tree was within their garden but did overhang the road), not a listed building, not an area of outstanding beauty, no legitimate reasoning at all.
This was super annoying as they wanted to build something near to it.
Anyway, about a year or so later my Mum came home to see a motorcyclist struggling to remove a giant branch from laying accross the entire road.
Needless to say it had become dangerous so they were allowed to remove it.
Ollie
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
I would like to report some very positive council experiences to balance the negative.
Our last house was adjacent to an urban green area (for dog walking etc). There was a very large conifer and nearby large beech, both of which were threatening damage to house roof and side path.
Called council. Response within couple of weeks (I recall). Estimated 60-80ft confer completely removed leaving stump approx 8 ft across. Overhanging branches trimmed from beech.
It gets better! at the front of the house was a council owned wide grass verge upon which sat a flowering cherry which succumbed to rot. Decaying tree removed and replaced with a maple.
I used to think the potholes in Somerset where I previously resided were dire. Having recently moved to South Gloucestershire, I now realise they were billiard smooth compared to the pockmarked tarmac I now enjoy.
Not all was perfect - the local authority were adept at bringing the entire town to a halt by scheduling roadworks in different parts of town concurrently rather than sequentially. No ones perfect!
Our last house was adjacent to an urban green area (for dog walking etc). There was a very large conifer and nearby large beech, both of which were threatening damage to house roof and side path.
Called council. Response within couple of weeks (I recall). Estimated 60-80ft confer completely removed leaving stump approx 8 ft across. Overhanging branches trimmed from beech.
It gets better! at the front of the house was a council owned wide grass verge upon which sat a flowering cherry which succumbed to rot. Decaying tree removed and replaced with a maple.
I used to think the potholes in Somerset where I previously resided were dire. Having recently moved to South Gloucestershire, I now realise they were billiard smooth compared to the pockmarked tarmac I now enjoy.
Not all was perfect - the local authority were adept at bringing the entire town to a halt by scheduling roadworks in different parts of town concurrently rather than sequentially. No ones perfect!
eribaMotters
Established Member
In Sept last year we moved to a new build on a country lane in Devon. There is a TPO in place going back to 1970's on trees in the area. Three mature Oaks overhang our land and another stands on our land. On this 1/2 acre plot the builder could not get permission for three bungalows, just two, because of this last tree.
Leaf fall is obviously a problem along with gutter clearance and one of the trees branches were getting close to the house with a bow staring to show it's age. We contacted the registered local tree feller who inspected for free and submitted a report to the council with a few photos, paying the £30? fee required. Three weeks later, with no inspection he was given clearance to complete the pruning required. He did so, and a bit more to 3 branches, for the bargain sum of £120 inclusive of the £30 fee. This was because he was taking on major tree works on the oak tree next door.
In light of the earlier mentioned Gov Document link I'm now going to take on very light pruning of the couple of dead bits in the tree on my land.
Colin
Leaf fall is obviously a problem along with gutter clearance and one of the trees branches were getting close to the house with a bow staring to show it's age. We contacted the registered local tree feller who inspected for free and submitted a report to the council with a few photos, paying the £30? fee required. Three weeks later, with no inspection he was given clearance to complete the pruning required. He did so, and a bit more to 3 branches, for the bargain sum of £120 inclusive of the £30 fee. This was because he was taking on major tree works on the oak tree next door.
In light of the earlier mentioned Gov Document link I'm now going to take on very light pruning of the couple of dead bits in the tree on my land.
Colin
Keith Cocker
Established Member
They would and it’s a pathetic argument. It’s the same one used when a developer lets a listed building go to wrack and ruin.
stuart little
Established Member
You'd need plenty of Titebond III !
Blackswanwood
Still Learning
Luckily all my dealings with our Planners have gone smoothly but nothing worse than dealing with a council official and finding they are a twit which seems to be the case here. I've seen a bit more on the matter on a post elsewhere, the trees are obviously dead and I'd have thought the local council had more value adding things they could be doing.
It may warrant a letter to the local MP as they tend to love the opportunity to call out waste in local services.
It may warrant a letter to the local MP as they tend to love the opportunity to call out waste in local services.
Lons
Established Member
Unfortunately local councils are a law unto themselves. The same council Roger is dealing with were desperate to spend m
£millions on a new county hall project (purely for political reasons as the existing is modern, large and well located), they wanted to sell so that new housing could be built, there was considerable local opposition but they jumped the gun and part of that was to cut down a line of mature healthy trees. It was done without notice and very quickly and despite the outcry as far as I know not a single person was held to account. The move didn't go ahead but that area is now empty of mature trees.
The same people who told me I was not permitted to plant a native hedge around my field and said "we'll be watching". I told them where to look, applied to the same council for an environment grant and got the hedge plants paid for. Down to just a few over officious idiots.
They're a shambles at times. Many years ago in last minute preparations for the late queen's visit I was persuaded to build a wall to house a carved sandstone nameplate for the county hall, they were supposed to supply me with readymix concrete, ready mixed coloured mortar and all the shaped special bricks. No electricity or water on site but on arrival they had forgotten both the concrete and mortar and I had to throw a hose and extension cables across a road to the fire station so we could mix as well as collect materials. They did have the bricks - apart from the important headers so they sent some poor sod by car from the north east to Birmingham to collect them which meant I was finishing off at 8pm the evening before her visit. They also forgot to get the carved letters painted so the name was impossible to read further away than a couple of metres.
I have loads of examples.
£millions on a new county hall project (purely for political reasons as the existing is modern, large and well located), they wanted to sell so that new housing could be built, there was considerable local opposition but they jumped the gun and part of that was to cut down a line of mature healthy trees. It was done without notice and very quickly and despite the outcry as far as I know not a single person was held to account. The move didn't go ahead but that area is now empty of mature trees.
The same people who told me I was not permitted to plant a native hedge around my field and said "we'll be watching". I told them where to look, applied to the same council for an environment grant and got the hedge plants paid for. Down to just a few over officious idiots.
They're a shambles at times. Many years ago in last minute preparations for the late queen's visit I was persuaded to build a wall to house a carved sandstone nameplate for the county hall, they were supposed to supply me with readymix concrete, ready mixed coloured mortar and all the shaped special bricks. No electricity or water on site but on arrival they had forgotten both the concrete and mortar and I had to throw a hose and extension cables across a road to the fire station so we could mix as well as collect materials. They did have the bricks - apart from the important headers so they sent some poor sod by car from the north east to Birmingham to collect them which meant I was finishing off at 8pm the evening before her visit. They also forgot to get the carved letters painted so the name was impossible to read further away than a couple of metres.
I have loads of examples.
In my view like the police, councils seem to be able to select which rule they uphold and which to ignore. Common sense seems to be a thing of the past.
In the past 20 years building houses (two different councils), they have never gone smoothly and it keeps getting worse, climate change is the main excuse to pile on extra box ticking (which big developers close by, don't seem to have to abide by). I am afraid that if you give power to officials it always goes to their head. The latest item was having to put a full planning application to move the required Bin & Bike store, because a different department demanded it be re-positioned. Part of the paperwork for this, was a drawing with sizes of the proposed wheelie bins (one for waste the other recycling) and a photograph of the bin (to be supplied by that same council). Nearby is a new Redrow estate (still not finished) and on bin collection day the longest line of wheelie bins on the entrance pavement you ever did see. Roadways on the estate are obviously too tight for the bin lorry. As someone has said "You can't make it up".
In the past 20 years building houses (two different councils), they have never gone smoothly and it keeps getting worse, climate change is the main excuse to pile on extra box ticking (which big developers close by, don't seem to have to abide by). I am afraid that if you give power to officials it always goes to their head. The latest item was having to put a full planning application to move the required Bin & Bike store, because a different department demanded it be re-positioned. Part of the paperwork for this, was a drawing with sizes of the proposed wheelie bins (one for waste the other recycling) and a photograph of the bin (to be supplied by that same council). Nearby is a new Redrow estate (still not finished) and on bin collection day the longest line of wheelie bins on the entrance pavement you ever did see. Roadways on the estate are obviously too tight for the bin lorry. As someone has said "You can't make it up".
Wow... undertakers have special dispensation to chop down trees! Well, they do have an important use for the timber
Jester129
Established Member
I have a nephew that is somewhat in charge of PP and Listed Buildings etc up north. I understand your frustration!!
Just be careful what you consider to be dead as it may regrow. Our local parish council had a very old oak tree (with a TPO) inspected a few years ago. A few months after inspection it came down in high winds with clear evidence of decay and infection (which was detailed in the report). The tree was visually uprooted (very sad to see) sprawled across the road, and demolished a bus shelter and a fence but interestingly it has started to regrow which is what the tee consultant said might happen. I am also aware of an old yew tree with a TPO on it which regrew after it supposedly died.
