Transitional planes

[Anonymous]

Hello,

Looking for a chin wag on transitionals. My normal stomping ground seems disappointly absent of hand plane enthusists. Or maybe they just don't want to talk to me :shock:

Anyway, I've got a couple of union smoothers. Both the same model. Quite like them. Wood on wood. But what I like about them the most is the grip. Unlike a handle you hold them right under the blade, which gives excellent control I feel. Anybody else like the grip ?

The first is in its original condition

Here's a picture of the second one. Its missing the lateral adjuster. Found its easy to adjust without it anyway. But, this gave me enough of excuse to install a much thicker blade.

Heres just a picture of that grip I was talking about.

and the sole....

Anybody got a favorite transitional ? any photos or thoughts

 

[MarcW]

Hi Jake,

The grip you mentioned is almost the same on traditional woodies from Germany. Only difference may be the higher momentum, but for the rest, it seems to be the same. Do not speak about the front knob, it's slightly different. :roll:

I often asked myself, why they stopped producing transitionals. Is there any reason, I don't know :-k ? The pic shows a traditional smoother, well I modified a little bit, but I think it makes it good fo the purpose.

Jake do you have other traditionals? I mean, jacks, jointers, which one do you prefer?

Regards, Marc

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Jake,

I don't have any experience of transitional planes (except from reading the stuff you have posted on the Aussie site). However, your posts about planes, planing and the various modifications you come up with are always interesting so keep on posting the stuff here - we enjoy reading it :wink:

Paul

 

[Philly]

HI Jake
Never come across a Transitional yet-but my eyes are always open :wink:
I have some woodie planes and they require a similar grip (right hand under the iron) It does give an excellent "feel" for what the plane is doing, and I;m sure I can place more pressure on the workpiece.
Cheers
Philly

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Marc, Paul and Philly ... appreciate the response.

Marc .... thanks for the photo. I enjoy seeing others workshops.

That German model has a similar grip alright..... I'm having trouble picturing how that one of yours is used. Got a little fence there for rebates , yes ?

I have no idea why they stopped making transitionals. Something else was selling better at the time I guess.

Those Union smoothers are the only working ones I have. I do have this old fella, whose seen better days. Not sure what to do with it yet. Considering to maybe make a new body for it.....very long for edge jointing maybe.....and add a fence. .... need to find a blade first and a handle.

Something interesting about those smoothers is there screwed together.
Uno, these sort of cup head screws. two of them for the frog, and another for the tote. Thats it.

But I found it easy to flattern the sole by just unscrewing these,,,,removing the hardware, then running the whole wooden body through the thicknesser.

Probably obvious , but explains the complaints I've heard of them, where the screws loosen over time in the wooden bodies. Haven't really had that problem yet myself though.

Marc, I noticed some old moulding planes on your shelf there.... would it be too cheeky to hint for a closer picture....only if the cameras handy one day. I've got a strong interest in them. And some of yours look interesting.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Those Union smoothers are the only working ones I have. I do have this old fella, whose seen better days. Not sure what to do with it yet. Considering to maybe make a new body for it.....very long for edge jointing maybe.....and add a fence. .... need to find a blade first and a handle.

When you've done it, Jake, please post a picture - bet it will be a real blast :wink:

Paul

 

[MarcW]

I'm having trouble picturing how that one of yours is used. Got a little fence there for rebates , yes ?

Marc, I noticed some old moulding planes on your shelf there.... would it be too cheeky to hint for a closer picture....only if the cameras handy one day. I've got a strong interest in them. And some of yours look interesting.

Jake, sorry I am late, the mortice chisel got me done yesterday ](*,)

First the molding planes. If you're interested to watch a special one, I will do another pic. Age? ... well I got them from my mom's uncle whose father was joiner who got them from... uno

The german one is a regular cheapo smoother I modified the way it runs on kind of rails, walnut scraps. The "rails" are two aluminum staightedges clamped to a long board, that I wanted to be joined perfectly. It was the only solution I could come to.

Regards, Marc

 

[Anonymous]

Will do, Paul !....when the day comes.

Thanks Marc for the photos....I've never seen that way of jointing before. Think thats clever.

Quite a few of those moulding planes I haven't got. 104s and 120 (?) on its left catch my eye.

Many of the wider cutting waving like profiles will be tricky to sharpen up.

But I reakon that 120 (what ever it is. I can't read it) wont be too hard to sharpen and use. May be handy for decorating edges of shelving etc....Easy to clamp the stock up for it as well....vertical in the vise.... thats one way anyhow.

.....it seems to have two flats that cut from the very beginning which lends to stability (essentially just like a stanley 45). I think, as long as when you sharpen the blade, that those flats are parallel to each other and peak ever so slightly from the sole, it shouldn't matter so much how the rest of the profile is in between the flats (as long as its sharp and protrudes the sole of course).....ie. the two flats should give the plane more stability than the other planes,,,,meaning you won't need to keep the profile the same as its sole (as much)......that 'might' make sense :lol: ( I tried )

Are they German planes ? .....If you ever decide you want to clear the shelf to make way for more LV planes, I'll buy them from you...Probably not though eh. They do look good there. :wink:

 

[Chris Knight]

Jake,
I have one rubbishy transitional that I bought years ago before knowing anything about them. Someone had put a thin aluminium sole on it and in my ignorance I thought it was an original part! When I knew better, I resoled it in oak. I hardly use it because I have much better planes but whenever I pick it up, I delight in its light weight and the ease of sliding the wooden sole over the work. My only other woodies are an HNT Gordon and the Mujingfang smoother so pull - not push.

I reckon that a transitional made with good ironmongery would be a great plane, although I would like an easy way to keep a tight mouth on a smoother.

 

[MarcW]

Jake,

I like my molding planes, like talking about and yes, it's a piece of family. But I scarcely use them, I only sharpened the iron of three of them. If one day I will sell, I give you a call, but better you don't wait. I joined some close-ups, so better see. The two are 26 mm profiles, #1206 for boards edges, I think shelves or similar, don't know. I never touched the blades, they are in good shape only need sharpening. The body is traditional for these regions here. I guess they are french, but can't confirm. Other than on the photo there is no brand name stamped.

Let's talk a little about transitionals again. They are interesting stuff. I recently repeatedly tried to fish one, but they all sell for 100 dollars or more plus shipping that makes 150 usually. So I'm without yet but wanted to give them a try. Are there any weak points except that one Chris mentioned (mouth opening)? I could imagine building one with todays means, but what should it have? Mouth opening adjustment, lateral adj., depth adj., low grip, dense wooden body, thick iron ...

Regards, Marc

 

[Scrit]

So I'm without yet but wanted to give them a try. Are there any weak points except that one Chris mentioned (mouth opening)?

There are a few of problems with them. They do tend to wear at the very front of the sole, especially the smoothers which in turn opens up the mouth, the front knobs are prone to splitting and you'll often see them with radial "shakes" in the ends if they've been badly treated (the cure: dump in a bucket of linseed oil until the cracks close-up). Oh, and the mouth adjustment requires the insertion of cardboard shims between the blade and the stock.....

I could imagine building one with todays means, but what should it have? Mouth opening adjustment, lateral adj., depth adj., low grip, dense wooden body, thick iron ...

Mouth open adjustment - Primus already have this on some of their planes and it's sometimes useful. Harder sole (lignum?) - again Primus have that. Thicker blade - yes, definitely, although I feel a wooden plane does suffer less from chatter IMHO. Depth and lateral adjustment - yes, but Norris/Lee valley block plane style to get the mechanism out of the way on the smaller block planes without a rear handle. A razee rear handle would make them a bit easier to use, as well.

Scrit

 

[Anonymous]

Hi again, Took a bunch of photos during a break today. For my own sake mostly. So I feel I'm making sense when I talk now, uno.

Chris .... Hi, good to read of another who has one. I know what you mean about the set mouth..... may not be of interest, but a friend of mine, made a woodie plane with an adjustable mouth. Here. Very clever fella.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... to=newpost

Marc...... Gawd, those moulding planes are beautiful. Interesting little recess in front of the blade for the supporting hand thumb (I guess) too. I'm very envious. Most of my moulding planes are beat up, and fairly common in type.

But back to the transitionals !...... Keep in mind I'm fairly new to them myself. But, I can talk about what I've noticed, just from trial and error with my two no.24's . Some of this stuffs no doubt trivial....anyway here goes. Something to talk about at least....

First thing I noticed of the two origional blades was that the older of the two blades was softer..... noticed that immediatly whilst sharpening. ( probably means nothing)

Like Scrit said, I noticed that one of the totes had developed a crack....but also because its held down with a wood screw, the tote is free to spin a bit when I pressure it.........I'd imagine, if your into building your own, you could improve on that by replacing all wood screws with wooden inserts (I mean, those things you screw in with an allen key) and just fasten everything up with bolts.

I can see what Scrit means by closing the mouth up with cardboard..... But it sounds fiddly doesn't it ? IMO, I don't think a very close mouth is as important as said to be anyway. Can live quite well without it.

I did notice another problem though with the frog......which no doubt lends to chatter.....blade doesn't sit flat....I don't know if its coincidence or whatever, but both unions had the same problem.,,,, I think you really need the heal of the bevel you've sharpened firmly planted on the frog, else see daylight and chatter....some photos to show what I mean..

The only fix I could think of was to shim it with folded paper.

Which straightened it all up....

....must lock a thin blade down eh.....and it works ok without the chatter. Here's the union with the origional blade.

But, I agree entirely with Scrit. Thicker the blade the better......especially at the start of a pass, have you noticed.... don't feel a thicker blade flex and fart as much........... I believe in thick blades so much I've modified most of my planes for thick blades.....here's some of my stanleys with old thick wooden blades.

One last photo.....

Can't help you with what timber to use for a transitional....For mouth inserts I just use offcut decking timber I take home with me when I take a load to the tip. :roll:

ps. If you change your mind on selling those moulding planes give us a yell eh. Love to have them on MY shelf :lol:

Have a good weekend.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Great stuff, Jake. I find the way you analyse problems and come up with workable solutions really interesting - and your pictures are great too :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

Well I've been trying to post to this thread all week, but every time I try I get disconnected. So fingers crossed...

Never so much as seen a "traditional transitional", but I did pick up these 1960s Marples a few years ago. Slightly different take on the idea, and built-up bodies for all your Krenov fans :wink:

Got further dates and stuff in British Planemakers, but I'm trying to catch this before the connection goes again... 8-[

Cheers, Alf

 

[MarcW]

Hi again, Took a bunch of photos during a break today. For my own sake mostly. So I feel I'm making sense when I talk now, uno.

But back to the transitionals !...... Keep in mind I'm fairly new to them myself. But, I can talk about what I've noticed, just from trial and error with my two no.24's . Some of this stuffs no doubt trivial....anyway here goes. Something to talk about at least....

Like Scrit said, I noticed that one of the totes had developed a crack....but also because its held down with a wood screw, the tote is free to spin a bit when I pressure it.........I'd imagine, if your into building your own, you could improve on that by replacing all wood screws with wooden inserts (I mean, those things you screw in with an allen key) and just fasten everything up with bolts.

I can see what Scrit means by closing the mouth up with cardboard..... But it sounds fiddly doesn't it ? IMO, I don't think a very close mouth is as important as said to be anyway. Can live quite well without it.

I did notice another problem though with the frog......which no doubt lends to chatter.....blade doesn't sit flat....I don't know if its coincidence or whatever, but both unions had the same problem.,,,, I think you really need the heal of the bevel you've sharpened firmly planted on the frog, else see daylight and chatter....some photos to show what I mean..

The only fix I could think of was to shim it with folded paper.
Which straightened it all up....

But, I agree entirely with Scrit. Thicker the blade the better......especially at the start of a pass, have you noticed.... don't feel a thicker blade flex and fart as much........... I believe in thick blades so much I've modified most of my planes for thick blades.....here's some of my stanleys with old thick wooden blades.

Can't help you with what timber to use for a transitional....For mouth inserts I just use offcut decking timber I take home with me when I take a load to the tip. :roll:

ps. If you change your mind on selling those moulding planes give us a yell eh. Love to have them on MY shelf :lol:

Have a good weekend.

Hi Jake,

I do ww for exactly the same reason, having a break, changing my mind and making something touchable.

I had the problem with the iron on the frog with a Kunz smoother last spring. I sharpened and tuned the chipbreaker and it performed not badly but ...it was a good present for my brother. ](*,) That's not quite the solution I strive for currently, but... #-o

As far as I read here and there, the frog on transitionals is a weak point. As it consits of two parts, one wooden, the other metal, there are always different movements in it. Think if wooden inserts, then the screws must allow a shifting movement (fore and back) of the metal part. Better the frog be one piece reaching down to the sole. Hm, it's becoming not so easy now... :lol:

Jake, your Stanleys look to be heavyweighters =D>

So have a nice weekend too, mine will start soon,

Marc

 

[MarcW]

Never so much as seen a "traditional transitional", but I did pick up these 1960s Marples a few years ago. Slightly different take on the idea, and built-up bodies for all your Krenov fans :wink:
...Got further dates and stuff in British Planemakers, but I'm trying to catch this before the connection goes again... 8-[

Cheers, Alf

Alf,

Never saw those, many thanks for the pics and I wish you a fast recovery.

Regards, Marc

 

[Paul Chapman]

Glad you got them posted at last, Alf - really interesting What's the black finish on the blades, frogs and lever caps?

Paul

 

[Scrit]

Probably been used on oak.......

 

[Alf]

Cynic... Paint, I think. To be honest they're old piccies and I haven't had them out of the cupboard in a while so I can't remember

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

Paint, I think.

And I thought it was some special, plane-faster finish :? :lol:

Paul