Tools and woodworkers

[Kittyhawk]

This post is because I'm sitting here totally bored with nothing to to.
Thats because the weather is absolutely horrible - sleety rain and freezing cold. I should be in the aircraftery finishing off a P.38 but a dew drop keeps dripping onto the work from the end of my nose and its too cold for the epoxy to cure anyway.
I did do a little glue job and brought it inside where its warm and sat it on the dining room table but unfortunately the warmth softened the epoxy glue a bit and a dollop of it dripped onto the varnished table top.
It never fails to amaze me how excitable women can get over the most trivial and insignificant little accidents. The glue came off with the aid of a vinegar soaked cloth and for sure the stain will eventually fade, given enough time.
Sitting there in the ensuring awkard silence, I got to thinking about a recent visit to a high end tool store in Auckland.
I think there are 3 classes of tools and 3 types of woodworkers - the professional, the amateur and the DIYer. The DIYer has a few tools purchased from chain store type hardware shops, relatively inexpensive brands from China or India which is perfectly adequate because he's not a committed woodworker but needs a bit of gear for when something needs building or repairing.
This leaves the professional and the amateur, and the high end tool shop where I went to buy a new blade for my Stanley Bailey.
Having a bit of the yarn with the salesman about tools and so on, he asked 'are you a tradie?' I said 'no, why?' He replied 'because you're buying middle of the road stuff - Stanley, Record, thats what all the builders, joiners, cabinet makers use.' I was somewhat amazed at this and asked 'so who buys all the super dooper expensive stuff you've got over there?' He laughed and said 'thats what you amateurs usually buy.'

 

[Inspector]

I know you have at least one amateur tool.

Pete

 

[Kittyhawk]

I know you have at least one amateur tool.

Pete

Very true, a beautiful tool and trying to live up to its undoubted excellence.

A lot of years ago I did a bit of cycle racing - nothing serious, just at club level. Our club president also owned the local bike shop and in his display window he had a beautiful Canondale road bike, carbon fibre frame, Campaglio gear, aero rims, the works and I desperately wanted to own it. He told me not to buy it. So I asked why not, was it no good? 'You're not worth it.' He said.
When I'd recovered from the insult he went on to explain that a top level athlete might squeeze out a bit more performance on it but at our level of ability I'd only feel aggrieved at forking out five grand for no improvement.
That counts amongst the best advice I've ever had and is always the cause of some introspection when down the tool isle of our hardware store.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Craftsmen of old did not have tools manufactured to micron tolerances from precisely formulated steels. They did not typically have cupboards and drawers full of fancy jigs, and specialist kit. Power tools meant those driven by water, steam engine or horse, not the grid or battery.

They produced extraordinary items with a generally limited toolbox full of treasured tools from a time when a chisel cost about two days pay (now about an hour in 2022).

The difference is practice, technique, hard work and skill. All preceded by a lengthy apprenticeship.

So for woodworking tools, expensive = pretty (objects of desire) not supremely functional.

Or am I too much a skinflint to appreciate and make use of quality even when it is under my nose!

 

[Kittyhawk]

Or am I too much a skinflint to appreciate and make use of quality even when it is under my nose!

No, you're not.
The tool that Inspector Pete is referring to a couple of posts back is a Veritas block plane which is just streets ahead of the horrible bit of junk masquerading as a block plane that I had before.
It is my most used tool and I appreciate the finesse that it allows but I don't think we need to go to that level of excellence with every tool in the shop.
I bought a scroll saw a while ago for NZ$150, new. I suppose for that money its not very good but the tilt table is flat and true, it moves where it should and doesn't move where it shouldn't and does what I want from it. I can buy a good brand for $700 but what would I gain. Longevity? I could buy nearly 5 cheapies for that money but since its coming up 3 years old and still going fine and since I'm 77...

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My father (died 1972) always said if you can't afford the best, buy the best you can afford.
This was a good rule to live by then, but times change. The middle market is the one that suffers ( a lot of it relies on old brand names) - I have no new premium tools, I have many old top class tools and some cheap stuff bought for a job ...... that has done the job and still does ( a tipped core drill for £4.99 about 20 years ago that has done the one job it was bought for about twenty times).

 

[Boringgeoff]

I was an owner driver in the concrete game, my first truck was a 1976 Ford Louisville we purchased in 1980. We ran that truck for over twenty years. Somewhere about 1999 - 2000 someone commented "who'd you upset to be driving that old piece of carp?" "The bank manager" I replied.
In 2002 we bought a brand new truck and it was still bright and shiny when some one asked "Whose a**e did you have to kiss to get to drive that nice piece of gear?" My answer was the same as before, "the bank manager".

 

[morqthana]

My father (died 1972) always said if you can't afford the best, buy the best you can afford.

My motto has always been to buy the best you can afford and not the cheapest you can find.

Also to note that used "pro-grade" tools on eBay are very often better, and better value, than shiny new DIY-grade tools from Wickebase or wherever.

An amusing take on pro vs DIY: http://www.team.net/mjb/hawg.html

 

[morqthana]

Power tools meant those driven by water, steam engine or horse, not the grid or battery.

Do you know where the term "knocking off time" came from?

 

[skeetstar]

At end of shift, the worker would knock the belt of his machine to stop it.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

off?

 

[clogs]

over the years have done well from the bay of flea's.....tools/machines wise....
but the best bargains came from people retiring, giving up or died....
I was always happy to pay the going rate when clearing out a workshop (deceased)...
I could not live with the thought of ripping a widow off.....
MY WIFE WILL BE THERE SOMEDAY......
One lady I went to was so glad he'd gone she gave me everything else from his shop...
I was just buying a Kitty multi use machine...

Kittyhawk I'm 5 years behind you and holding on the best I can.....hahaha....

A dear friend died a while ago and before he did he gifted me a No2 flypress and his leather handled Eastwing claw hammer...(mine had been stolen)....
those are my favorite tools......

I remember telling a friend that when my workshop got busted, they nicked all my elec and battery tools....I said I was still quite happy as they left all the hand tools.....
I explained that elec / battery tools are all the same....expensive but easy to get.....
my planes and spoke shaves even screwdrivers ect seem to fit my hand...and are almost irreplaceable....
my workshop is now well protected by 3 noisey B/Collies and a 12 gauge....being fully retired I hardly ever go out now.....happiest in the shop.....

lastly I have a system of valueing my stuff for when it eventually gets sold off....
the machines get a star system regarding value... 1 star equals a grand and 1/2 a star is 500...etc...
I regulary show her what everything is worth REALISTICALY...even the hand tools she knows the value..priced to sell not given away.....
to many sharks out there taking advantage....
BE WARNED.....

 

[sawtooth-9]

over the years have done well from the bay of flea's.....tools/machines wise....
but the best bargains came from people retiring, giving up or died....
I was always happy to pay the going rate when clearing out a workshop (deceased)...
I could not live with the thought of ripping a widow off.....
MY WIFE WILL BE THERE SOMEDAY......
One lady I went to was so glad he'd gone she gave me everything else from his shop...
I was just buying a Kitty multi use machine...

Kittyhawk I'm 5 years behind you and holding on the best I can.....hahaha....

A dear friend died a while ago and before he did he gifted me a No2 flypress and his leather handled Eastwing claw hammer...(mine had been stolen)....
those are my favorite tools......

I remember telling a friend that when my workshop got busted, they nicked all my elec and battery tools....I said I was still quite happy as they left all the hand tools.....
I explained that elec / battery tools are all the same....expensive but easy to get.....
my planes and spoke shaves even screwdrivers ect seem to fit my hand...and are almost irreplaceable....
my workshop is now well protected by 3 noisey B/Collies and a 12 gauge....being fully retired I hardly ever go out now.....happiest in the shop.....

lastly I have a system of valueing my stuff for when it eventually gets sold off....
the machines get a star system regarding value... 1 star equals a grand and 1/2 a star is 500...etc...
I regulary show her what everything is worth REALISTICALY...even the hand tools she knows the value..priced to sell not given away.....
to many sharks out there taking advantage....
BE WARNED.....

Fully relate to this.
I am making sure my machines are in good condition - because there will be a time ( not too far off ) when they will be sold.
I will leave a list of values.
Whoever gets it, will have value - She will not be cheated.
I hope someone eventually appreciates.

 

[Kittyhawk]

over the years have done well from the bay of flea's.....tools/machines wise....
but the best bargains came from people retiring, giving up or died....

Very true, sadly.
When my best friend died his widow gave me his meager tool collection which was in fact stuff that he had inherited from his father. My friend was not much into hands-on stuff himself.
Amongst the few tools was a small engineers type vise, the type you clamp onto the workbench with a screw arrangement. I couldn't see much use for it and it appeared somewhat beaten up with various slots, holes and other indentations filed and drilled in and about the jaws. I knew from my friend that his father had been into ship modelling sometime in the '30's but never made the connection.
Then, when I started in the model aeroplane business I knew EXACTLY what the vise was for and it has become a treasure.

 

[PDW125]

I buy second hand a lot, but usually it’s not because of the money but it is because I don’t need to buy the latest & greatest tools and sometimes it’s because you know that a tool has been looked after and also that it works ! Tools that are 9-12 months old that are being sold on ..?? You can bet that they aren’t the best and the owner has realised that ! I also tend to strip and clean anything that comes to me second hand so I both know how they work but I can also check for anything that needs to be repaired or replaced (such as brushes on motors) and give everything a clean, a grease and a good wipe over.

I’ve also got tools that were handed down - I have all my fathers lead working tools for example - and I know how they have been used over the years and they have very special memories. Those are the ones that I wouldn’t want to lose or have “borrowed” so they tend to be kept close to hand !

 

[Spectric]

I think there are 3 classes of tools and 3 types of woodworkers - the professional, the amateur and the DIYer. The DIYer has a few tools purchased from chain store type hardware shops, relatively inexpensive brands from China or India which is perfectly adequate because he's not a committed woodworker but needs a bit of gear for when something needs building or repairing.

I think the profesional has the advantage that they can deliver without a huge investment in tools whilst the person at the other end is trying to mimick the profesionals abilities or overcome there inabilities by buying a shed load of tools, it is like we are on the search for that exclusive tool that can make us into top class woodworkers without having to put a lot of effort into getting those skills, I for one would love a robotic chiesel that does exactly what I say and never needs sharpening!

 

[MikeK]

Having a bit of the yarn with the salesman about tools and so on, he asked 'are you a tradie?' I said 'no, why?' He replied 'because you're buying middle of the road stuff - Stanley, Record, thats what all the builders, joiners, cabinet makers use.' I was somewhat amazed at this and asked 'so who buys all the super dooper expensive stuff you've got over there?' He laughed and said 'thats what you amateurs usually buy.'

I think the salesman might have overlooked a relevant difference between the tradie and the amateur. I am a hobbyist and do not have the ability to write off my equipment as a business expense. When I break a tool, or a piece of equipment fails, I bear the complete expense to replace it.

I learned too late that only the rich can afford to buy cheap, and struggled with inexpensive tools that required constant fettling to produce the results I expected. My journey with the router table and P/T would have been less expensive if I had skipped the cheap options. If anything happens to my Lie-Nielsen, Festool, or SCM tools and machines, I am confident that the pain of repair or replacement will be gentle.

My father (died 1972) always said if you can't afford the best, buy the best you can afford.

My father was a great mechanical engineer, but a bad DIYer. He believed in buying the absolute cheapest tools, no matter how long they lasted or how many times he had to replace them...and he never threw anything out. He would be in the middle of a small project when a tool failed, which happened frequently because of the poor quality or abuse, and would make another trip to the hardware store (about 24 miles away) to buy a replacement. After he died, my brother and I cleared out his two-car garage shop and took nearly everything to the landfill. The two local estate clearing auction houses weren't interested in adding the horde to their next general sale.

I found at least six drill motors, five jigsaws, four biscuit cutters, and three circular saws that didn't work or had broken parts. I lost track of the amount of broken hand tools and partial socket sets. My father would rather buy a complete no-name socket or screwdriver set for $10 than a replacement for a broken component that had a lifetime guarantee for $8. I have no doubt that he spent far more for the many sets of 3/8-inch socket sets than I did for my Craftsman set from Sears.

My mom didn't want to know what we hauled away because she would have been furious at the amount of money spent on junk tools. We made three trips to the landfill with our two trucks to clear out the garage and she was able to park her car under a roof for the first time in over 20 years.

When the time comes to liquidate my shop, my wife knows where all of the receipts are and who to contact.

 

[thetyreman]

buy cheap buy twice, my grandad was a tradesman, he died before I was born but virtually everything he owned was high quality and it all still works today.

 

[Spectric]

I learned too late that only the rich can afford to buy cheap, and struggled with inexpensive tools that required constant fettling to produce the results I expected. My journey with the router table and P/T would have been less expensive if I had skipped the cheap options. If anything happens to my Lie-Nielsen, Festool, or SCM tools and machines, I am confident that the pain of repair or replacement will be gentle.

That is just so true, if you are very rich then throwing away something that cost a grand is like the average joe throwing away something costing a hundred, so buying right first time is the cost effective option and so why have so many taken the detour to get to the right tool or machine especially if you read these forums there is no excuse. I had issues with my PT107 P/T and have ongoing issues with a Domino, Mike brought a Holtzman anchor disguished as a P/T and I bet there are many more out there who have similar stories where they knew the right decision to make but brought something that failed to deliver instead.

 

[morqthana]

Another thing to remember is that if you buy something for £100 then find you needed to spend £150, you've wasted £100.

If you buy something for £150 then find you only needed to spend £100, you've wasted £50.