Tools and machines for my workshop?

[cammy9r]

To be honest this forum is full of old fuddyduddys AND helpful folk its just your pot luck who reads and replies.
If the OP wants to buys lots of tools let him, be they powered or manual. I dont see why so many had to be so condescending, no need really. Many on here have a stick up the butt when it comes to filling your workshop FULL of tools and machines because they churn out nice work using only flint and muscle.
So he spends money on tools and has a good budget, £6K is the two uppermost drawers of my mechanics toolbox. In fact £6K would not even buy my coworker's toolbox, horses for courses I think they say. He was only asking an opinion on the brands of the machines he was looking at. I myself have about £4K of record power machines that have only just run out of warranty and they have performed well enough for me when making my kitchen, interior doors, radiator covers, office desks some nice built ins and lots of other odds and sods. I have never planned what i want to make so could not answer that question but i have the ability to make it should i need. My workshop in 30sqm and still I have plenty of room to get stuff done. However none of this is what the OP asked.
Sebastian, I believe ITech and SIP are very similar machines even with some of the axminster ones too but the internals might not be the same if the pricing is greatly differing. It is worth trying to research how these are put together if possible, if not then get one with the longer warranty (probably axy stuff).
Anyway I wish you all the best in the future with your projects.
PS can you ask the fuddyduddys about sharpening and DIY electrical Installations

 

[AJB Temple]

Sebastian, I try quite hard not to be rude or sucked into antagonistic threads. I think the opening post of a thread is quite crucial. My reading of your position was that you had been woodworking a couple of years, had spent quite a lot on tools, and had produced, in your own words, firewood. This signals things to people who have been doing this for a long time. There are some really expert people on here, and I have learned a lot from many of them. I can't recall ever getting into a slanging match thread.

My advice to get the best from this place, is tell people clearly what you are trying to do and what your gear actually is and a sensible self appraisal of your skill level. No one is point scoring here: in my experience over the past few years, members have gone out of their way to help me.

OK, I am not a novice, but there are dozens of things I am weak at or have not done before. My policy when asking for advice is to provide context. It is impossible to recommend gear without that. For example I commented on the Domino. Based on my experience of both machines. I tried to make clear what I use them for so that you can decide if that context is relevant to you.

It is pointless on Internet forums saying "I am leaving as you are all horrible". Just take a deep breath and think if your approach is getting you want you want. There are real skills here at your disposal for free. Dump this thread and start again. Show us some of your work.

 

[Ttrees]

Jory Brigham does some nice work, thanks for that!
I have had only a glance yet at his stuff (not for long)

Have you studied how he makes furniture Sebastian?
A lot of it looks like all solid hardwoods at the top of the line.
I suggest you look up some forum members like Custard, Derek Cohen, or David C
and forget about anything handheld with electrons for now, unless its a router.

Just a guess by looking at Jory's stuff that he doesn't use much electron powered hand tools and relies on decent machinery, not a cheap outfit of imported aluminium stuff.
He might do now. but I get the impression that at one time he may have had only hand tools and some machinery only, and maybe a router or three.

As I was saying, its worth researching three core quality machines, but forgot to mention search for three at a time, and you might find one of those used for cheap.
You can do a lot of research if you want value, and go for suitable machines
that are easily compatable with VFD's for instance.
A lot of three phase iron can be bought for just 500 quid or even much less again, if you've got a way to make safety fixtures or fix things.
You need to move those machines and those bases you can buy look a bit flimsy.

That's why my advice about the welder was kind of in jest, but practical if you're not in a rush situation.

Tom

 

[AJB Temple]

Cammy. One man's fuddy daddy is another man's voice of experience. In general young men think their father knows nothing. As they get older they are amazed at how much their father has learned.

 

[silz]

@jpor4180

Thank you for such a detailed & kind response, you've provided some really helpful insight there, I'll zig-zag a bit through your message, hopefully that won't be an issue.

On the electrics, I'm making the assumption that I will not need to change the wire itself. The property itself is a newbuilt and the electrics to that side of the house are supposed to handle the eventual upgrade to an electric car charger hence why I'm assuming all I'll need to upgrade is the sockets itself and the breaker.

I've already asked for quotes and have 0 intention on doing any of the work myself. Option B would be to just go all in and add a full 100amp and an electric car charger if the existing wire is not good enough for 32 amps. I would try to avoid investing too much in the electrics due to our intention to move though.

Wow that Triton router is an absolute beast! It hasn't even been on my radar at all! This is exactly why I wanted to ask here -- i think i've learnt about ~10 new brands to consider and get a better/cheaper overall setup for my money.

I've been tempted by some used Festool stuff but most of the things I've found so far look quite used & abused for a mere 20-30% discount, it might also be the COVID situation as I did notice a lot of DIY tools stocks have ran out for most companies.

That PT is quite nice but sadly quite out of my budget as well.

Which one would you choose in the context of my budget between the AT260SPT at 1.65k and AC250PT at 0.85k?

If I could help it I'd prefer getting the cheaper one as I wouldn't have to worry about 16 AMP/electrics and i'd be able to have some budget left over for other tools.

On the other hand I feel like I don't want to skimp on the PT itself as it seems like such a core tool when it comes to working with sawn timber.

 

[AJB Temple]

Ah, Cammy the confidence of literalism. Older heads may say "let's check he's not asking the wrong question, in case that changes the answer".

 

[AJB Temple]

Sebastian. Home car chargers for the latest batteries consume a lot of juice. I have a Tesla Model X and I had to run in extra armoured to supply that in an outbuilding, opting for a dedicated supply. Typically, the home charger stations will max out at a 32amp supply. Make sure your electrician is experienced with electric car charger installations and make sure your internet also reaches that point (or software updates, which are frequent, will be a real pain).

 

[billw]

I'm not looking for <what do i need to buy to get started with woodworking>. I'm by no means 'good' at this but I have been consistently woodworking for 2+ years now. It's just that this year was the first time I had the opportunity to get a proper home workshop.

I confess this confuses me somewhat, and I am not sure the OP has sufficiently answered some of the subsequent questions.

If this is a hobby, then why have loads of machinery right at the beginning? I mean for a hobbyist surely it's more about working with your hands, with limited tools and building up skills? I mean I'd love some machinery sure, but I'm not going to build the Ark so a bandsaw with a 100mm capacity would probably do 95% of the work I needed, thus I can't really justify spending 3x/4x on a larger one to do the remaining 5% when I can just buy PAR or lap narrower boards.

If he's not "good" at woodworking, then is the machinery expected to simply achieve quick and accurate results rather than the age-old method of trial and error? Having a hobby is meant to start hard and get easier isn't it? Nobody starts playing golf and expects to be Tiger Woods within a week. Some people will probably spend a vast sum of money on clubs but still play like they're drunk and blindfolded.

This all just reminds me of when I used to do trackdays and occasionally you'd get someone in their 20s rock up with a track-prepped Ferrari on a trailer accompanied by all the gear and clothing, and then spend the day getting overtaken by someone with talent in a Ford Fiesta. However, they probably didn't really care and just wanted to have a day out with a very expensive toy because they could, and fair play to them. Total and utter waste of a Ferrari though in my opinion.

So the question of motive remains, unless I've missed it. I think many of the replies have essentially been well-meaning, but perhaps not come across that way.

 

[silz]

@AJB Temple Nice! I appreciate the advice, I'm definitely not going to cheap out on any of that. Last thing I want to do is hack things together in an unsafe matter.

I've definitely learnt my lesson on how to ask the question. I thought I was being extra helpful/tedious by providing the spreadsheets. I literally wanted to avoid people suggesting I buy other <type> of tools or doing <something else>. But it is what it is, tomorrow's another day!

 

[cammy9r]

It does matter a bit, I can't recommend a machine without knowing what it's actually going to be used for. If you want to buy a bandsaw to cut dolls house components you don't really need anything more than a benchtop jobbie but if you plan on ripping down 300mm depth boards you need something with a bit more substance and in effect, more money.

OP has already mentioned he WILL be making a seating bench and a dining table, is that not enough for you to make your recommendation, perhaps not. No point on giving recommendations based on what has already been made as, it appears it has already been made without your recommended tooling.

 

[Trevanion]

OP has already mentioned he WILL be making a seating bench and a dining table, is that not enough for you to make your recommendation, perhaps not. No point on giving recommendations based on what has already been made as, it appears it has already been made without your recommended tooling.

I don't really see what else Sebastian needs that he hasn't already got to make his bench and dining table though. I generally work on an "I'll buy it when I need it" premise because I won't need it until I need it and in that meantime, there may be an excellent deal somewhere that's irresistible and I may pick it up at that point because it works out better.

If it were me, I'd be prioritising getting an excellent planer thicknesser more than anything else because you spend a good chunk of your time in this hobby/trade/industry just planing timber and every effort should be made to have the best results possible with the least effort and headache. I'd personally either be buying a refurbished oldie such as a Sedgwick or to refurbish myself because it will end up being a life-time machine which nothing new could compete against pound for pound. But I understand that isn't to everyone's taste.

 

[cammy9r]

A P/T was what he was asking about (one of the things) to upgrade. The info above is what your first post could have been as it is sound advice but i dont think he is up for the challenge of the heavy cast stuff. I would love lots of old cast machinery but the logistics of it due to weight and a wooden floor have always put me off.

 

[Trevanion]

The info above is what your first post could have been as it is sound advice

It could've been my first post, but I don't want to push someone down a money pit when you may not need to.

You don't buy an articulated lorry for city driving and you don't buy a Renault Clio to tow 10 tonnes, it's all about context.

 

[Fitzroy]

I’ve pal who’s been playing golf for 5 years and plays off low single figures. He has a good income and bought expensive clubs straight off the bat. He took lessons and practiced hard. He’s never felt any need to change his clubs, he bought a different style of putter as he outskilled his original one. He sold that on for good money second hand as it was a classy make. Yes in his first months he played like a drunk blind man, and wasted lots of expensive Callaway golf balls in the lakes and bushes!

I’m envious of someone who is able, financially and mindfully, to go in big time like the OP. However I’m not sure I see a downside of buying top end straight away. The risk is you don’t like woodworking and loose money selling them cheap to the rest of us

There’s I guess the risk you want to make small things, for which big tools may actually be a disadvantage, but I’d assume no one is daft enough to look at a 12” PT and a 300mm bandsaw for cutting small bits of wood.

F

 

[Doug B]

@DOUG

I don't know why some people are worried about the space in my garage, there's plenty of space for 4 large tools and a bench.

Even with an empty garage, how realistic is it to be dealing with full-sized sheets inside the garage itself? I always pull out the saw horses in the driveway to handle that and if a project ever gets too big I just overflow into the driveway.

I currently have about ~19sqm with a driveway that would easily fit 3 cars which is more than enough space and we plan on moving to a bigger house with a double garage or room for a dedicated workshop in ~1.5 years anyway. But even if we don't, I'm content with the curent space.

That’s not dissimilar to the space I have, the trick I found is sorting out work flow particularly with regard to prepping timber.

My bandsaw is higher than my workbench & saw/spindle which it sits between so timber can be sawn without moving anything.
My planer thicknesser & saw/spindle are on casters so they can be moved towards the centre of the shop if I need to work on long lengths.

I can process 8x4 sheets for this I use a track saw with the sheet on bearers on top of the workbench which is to one side in the centre of the shop as every thing revolves around it.
I’ve not bothered with a ducted dust extraction system I just have a 5m long 6” flexible hose that I take to each machine as it’s needed. This is the most important thing I think when working in a small workshop, dealing with shavings & dust at source, it increases productivity & maintains a safe working environment.
Personally I’ve looked to buy more industrial type machines even though there is only me working in the shop as the build quality is generally much better, that said it’s my livelihood so budget restrictions aren’t what they would be if it were my hobby.

 

[Hornbeam]

This thread has raised lots of questions and lots of emotions.
I have built my workshop up over 30 years. 80% of my tools are second hand but if I had to go out and replace everything new tomorrow youre probably looking a £20k (sobering thought for the insurance perspective). If someone has enough finance to buy a whole new workshop from scratch then fine. The fact is new tools can be really expensive and when you look at teh list most of the machines are not what I would call professional quality.
If you want to work with rough sawn timber then a PT is a must, 10 inches is good but what ever width you get you will always have a project that is slightly wider than capacity. I would focus your money on this key piece of kit.
Bandsaw. I agree with Steve that I would put this slightly above a table saw but it is also surprising what curved work you can do with a quality jigsaw
Bobbin sander unless you have a specific use then I would say of limited value
Domino jointer are a bit marmite. They are incredibly quick and efficient but what will it give you over mortice and tennons other than speed. M+T can also be cut quite quickly with a router and a router table
Router table set up. I dont think a cast iron top will give you anything over a home build set up. Home build also allows you to tailor the design to suit. The 2 key issues are accuracy of fence and depth adjustment. I wouldnt waste money on a very expensive router in a table. I did spend the money on a Jessem lift and dedicated motor fro Peter Sefton, The whole lot worked out including table build at about 40% of your estimate. For my type of work I find the router table better than a spindle would be.
My approach would be fewer tools/machines but best for your budget. As said previously what you want to make will dictate the tools you buy. You can almost always make smaller things on larger tools but not the other way round. The down side of this is bigger tools take up more space/power supply issues etc. The other advantage of buying less equipment is that you have time to learn how to use it properly and safely. It is surprising how versatile some machines can be with a little though and development of jigs.
Hand tool skills are the fundamental of any craft. Power tool and machines make things easier and faster but they also make mistakes much faster. Although I use machines a lot I cannot underestimate the their importance so I would also recommend a strong look in this area
These comments/pointers are made with the best of intentions and are no way meant to be patronising or critical,
We are often quite critical of our own work whereas others may be extremely positive. My advice is to select projects which will develop use of tools/new skills and deliver end results that you are proud of ( my dog still gets the odd cock up to chew while she sits in the woodshavings waiting until she can go and spread them around the house)
Good luck with your purchases and progression. Dont be put off by previous comments, I am 100% certain they were all made with genuine intentions
Ian

 

[jpor4180]

On the electrics, I'm making the assumption that I will not need to change the wire itself. The property itself is a newbuilt and the electrics to that side of the house are supposed to handle the eventual upgrade to an electric car charger hence why I'm assuming all I'll need to upgrade is the sockets itself and the breaker.

I've already asked for quotes and have 0 intention on doing any of the work myself. Option B would be to just go all in and add a full 100amp and an electric car charger if the existing wire is not good enough for 32 amps. I would try to avoid investing too much in the electrics due to our intention to move though.

I'm no spark, but I've done my fair share of rewiring etc. So please take the following as my understanding, liable to be corrected by someone more experienced/qualified. I've had a quick google and it does look that 32A charger points for cars go on a 40A breaker and that would be really good news. A 40A breaker would be ideal as once you've got lights and some bathroom extractor fans going (I have two, bang for buck this is a great dust extraction method for fine particulates) that might be 6A, a suitably sized dust extractor might draw 7-10A, your planer thicknesser on full chat might also pull 10A. These amperages are lower than the plug they are on and I think that's to account for start up current I believe. Start up current for single phase machines can be pretty big. A 40A breaker won't (and shouldn't) trip straight away if more current than this is drawn. In fact there are many types of breakers that need to be picked by your spark based on acceptable trip time. Essentially, I think 32A breaker would be tight based on my experience, but 40A gives you good breathing space, and it looks like you should be good for 40A but of course your electrician will be able to tell you this at the quote stage.

Wow that Triton router is an absolute beast! It hasn't even been on my radar at all! This is exactly why I wanted to ask here -- i think i've learnt about ~10 new brands to consider and get a better/cheaper overall setup for my money.

Yeah it's pretty good, it's a treat to use. I've heard good things about the Hikoki/Hitachi as well, as mentioned by someone earlier, but I've had no personal experience with it. But yes, I don't think you can go wrong with that Triton, it adjusts quite well when mounted in the table which is great.

I've been tempted by some used Festool stuff but most of the things I've found so far look quite used & abused for a mere 20-30% discount, it might also be the COVID situation as I did notice a lot of DIY tools stocks have ran out for most companies.

I happily buy machines second hand but I really don't enjoy buying second hand power tools. They are used and abused as you say. There's no doubt Festool are better than the more general contractor brands, but the price new and used can be tough to stomach. There are also other good brands such as Mafell, Lamello, Fein and Mirka which are on the same level or higher as Festool in certain specialties. My experience with power tools, used in shop and on site is that they are limited life span, there's no doubt about that. Owning an expensive one out of warranty isn't an enjoyable experience and is best avoided - it just so happens that now and then one comes about cheap enough to absorb that risk. I definitely think you'll get good value out of the Domino you've picked however. I don't have one, but my mum's boyfriend does. He's very happy but does tell me that he's had issues with snapping bits if his dust extractor has filled up and he's not noticed. I'm weighing up getting the mafell duo doweller, that would be a similar alternative just in case you'd not seen that - domino more tried and tested realistically so possibly the better bet.

That PT is quite nice but sadly quite out of my budget as well.

Which one would you choose in the context of my budget between the AT260SPT at 1.65k and AC250PT at 0.85k?

If I could help it I'd prefer getting the cheaper one as I wouldn't have to worry about 16 AMP/electrics and i'd be able to have some budget left over for other tools.

On the other hand I feel like I don't want to skimp on the PT itself as it seems like such a core tool when it comes to working with sawn timber.

Electrics aside for now and just comparing them side by side, I would say the 260 looks substantially beefier. If you're able to go see them in store it might help guide a decision but I've had a look and your nearest stores are both about an hour and a half away (Nuneaton and High Wycombe). Looking at photos, the cast iron surface on the 260 looks more substantial than the 250 and that's definitely a good thing. I won't lie, both seem pretty noisy from the specifications but I don't think the noise specification is correct for the SPT, because I know for a fact spiral cutters are significantly quieter and the rated 89Db is the same as on its sibling model Axminster Trade AT260PT Planer Thicknesser - this is one option budget wise. I vaguely recall looking at these as it happens. Please check with Axminster but I do believe that you could buy the standard 260PT and later upgrade the cutter head. Overall this would in all liklihood work out more expensive, but it would give you a very good PT to get working on and maybe a year or two down the line you could upgrade to a spiral block. My guess is that either 260 model is going to to be powerful enough to run smoothly with a nice hum, which might be easier on your neighbours than that Craft model. There's few sounds as grating as an overworked PT imho!

I actually didn't know much about the MB when I bought it, it just turned up for the right price and I did a quick (couple of hours) research and took the punt, turned out to be quite a good choice. I think I only paid £1400 for mine, but it is 3 phase and those do tend to turn up cheaper as to run three phase is a bit of a mission in itself, this may be a path to look at once you've moved to your next house as it requires a bit more planning for electrics, hardware to run etc, and there's perfectly good single phase options as you've found. It's older than the ones seen on the Axminster site by some margin (80s maybe?) still quite young by my standards and has been upgraded to the TERSA cutter block. Looking at the ones on the Axminster site, 6 grand or so, seems quite expensive. I doubt it's ~3x the machine of the Axminster Trade. The 260 models look decent, skipped through a couple of youtube videos just to hear them running as see different angles and I don't think you'd regret it. All I will say, is a PT thicknesser is something where you'll always want a little bit more width and it might be worth seeing what you can get on the 12" side of things before making a final decision. I am not an expert on newer machines so I don't really know what is about but there's a Startrite SD31/Record Power PT310 (the same machine as far as i can tell only looked briefly, same parent company). In non coronavirus times I believe Record Power does a few shows where discounts can be had (maybe someone else can confirm). Perhaps a deal breaker as I don't think you can get these with a helical cutter head.

I'd speak to your electrician about cost, but if you're doing it at the same time as running your 13A sockets, adding a circuit for 16A sockets shouldn't be outrageous. Maybe start another thread, and see if we can get a shop layout together for you so you put a 16A commando where you need them, but with your breaker capabilities, I think you'll unlock better quality tools if you can stomach 16A sockets over 13A. The price difference for parts for a ring of 16A commandos alongside a ring of 13A sockets will be less than £100 over just 13A sockets.

 

[MikeG.]

...... All I will say, is a PT thicknesser is something where you'll always want a little bit more width and it might be worth seeing what you can get on the 12" side of things before making a final decision. .........

I couldn't agree more. I have a 10" PT, and keep running into its limits. Through-and-through oak boards, for instance, even after I've ripped them down from waney edge, are often 400+mm wide. If you have a 10" PT, you'll end up hand planing quite a lot, or looking for a friend with a bigger machine.

 

[cammy9r]

Ah, Cammy the confidence of literalism. Older heads may say "let's check he's not asking the wrong question, in case that changes the answer".

Nothing wrong with that. However, the older heads seem to have missed that Sebastian asked clearly enough about (in bold font) about which of the 2 P/T's he was looking at was probably the better option. Then he asked what to look for in a bandsaw as there are many variants of models that all look the same. Then came the router, he could spend £2k but is it worth it. He would like to know of quality brands of routers. He would likely build his own table. Next, the bobbin sander. His choice of the axy one, is it a good bet? he has no experience with one. Now the festool domino had me slightly confused as it seemed more of a statement of choice rather than a question. So to me he had already decided on the smaller version.
Near the end of his post he wrote :
Any advice around the choices/potential alternatives or just ways to bring the overall cost down is greatly appreciated as I have little practical experience with the above beyond digital research.
He did get replies about the bring overall costs down part and not so much about alternatives.
The questions seemed correct to me and no need for the older heads to check anything other than their memories of how they chose their tools and whether they found the brand of good enough quality.

 

[Wildman]

Track saw, I forgot about that. Best way to handle sheet goods, short of having an Altendorf

I have done without a track saw or similar for 50 odd years but as I get older and the workshop fills up have started to build a wall mounted sheet saw and wonder why I never thought of it before. Perfect for handling sheet materials without the need to pull out trestles and wait for it to stop raining or having 8ft of space on all sides of a table saw. it will make life a lot easier