Tongue & Groove - Suffered I have

[RobinBHM]

IHi Pete,

I would be interested in the links for the gear you used. Ive been thinking about buying a light tent for photographing door handles etc for our brochure bur I havent got a clue what lighting I would need.

I believe product photography is a big industry now due to ecommerce sites.

I dont know which router plate would be best, i used to use a steel one with adjustable corners. I did find that the top i used was dished inwards causing problems youve had. I screwed a hefty batten and shimmed to solve it.

 

[ColeyS1]

Pete that would be great and very interesting thank you. On my list of things to do is a infinite curve to try and improve my photos. Haven't even touched camera gear in 6 months but looking forward to taking off the lens caps.
Another one on the outfeed is definitely going to help, or if you've only got one, move it so its literally on top the cutter. Just keep your fingers clear - might be worth having some nice long push sticks to hand

 

[chippy1970]

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this so far , as I've only just scanned the thread. Why are you bothering to t&g it anyway , usually you can just glue boards up and just clamp them together. Maybe the odd biscuit or domino to aid alignment.

 

[RobinBHM]

It is generally considered good practice to mark the timber so that the face side of the timber is the convex side.

Are you sure? Who taught you to do that? I wouldn't put a face mark on the face of a piece of timber that isn't flat because flatness is what a face mark indicates. Nor would I put an edge mark on an edge that's similarly not straight, nor square to the board's face. Face side and face edge marks aren't very helpful if they're put on faces and edges neither of which is flat or true. In fact, incorrectly allocated face and edge marks can be a menace because in larger manufacturing businesses, where machining operations and joinery or making operations are carried out by different people in different places, the joiner/ maker will assume the wood machinist has done the job correctly and marks applied to the wood by the wood machinist can be relied upon to convey specific and accurate information. Slainte.

I realise it is generalisation to suggest a facemark on the bow side is correct, although it is helpful for the machining operation issue the op is trying to diagnose.

It is not correct to assume a face mark goes on the flat side. Timber is never truly flat, so it isnt helpful. A facemark identifies a datum face which determines orientation for future machining operations. A face side may be chosen for various reasons such as bow, character of grain, lack of sap etc. It depends on the purpose for that particular component.

Door stiles for example should be flat, but they never are, there will always be a bow, however small. Telling somebody to mark the flat side would leave him in a quandry. The answer is to pair up the stiles, whichever way is the established standard. Quality control would set a maximum acceptable bow.

Face and edge marks for establishing 2 adjacent sides that are true to each other and flat are a text book description but not helpful in marking out components for a project. Establishing face edge marks on this basis is a good founding principal and vital if hand planing. It isnt so relevant for timber PAR'd with a throughfeed moulder or even an over under, since the face/edges will always generally be true to each other (subject to quality control)

Consistency in marking out is of course vital, I have standard operating procedures so each of my machinists know which way a face or edge mark should appear for each machining operation. It requires an experienced joiner to mark out since he would understand how the bow in piece of timber affects accuracy of machining operations.

Part of the enjoyment of working with timber is the fact that each piece is different, so there is decision process for every single piece.

 

[Graham Orm]

T&G traditionally has the tongue & groove offset from centre so that when flooring is laid you can leave more timber above the tongue and groove allowing for more wear and tear.

Are you sure your cutter isn't made to cut off centre and you've done some one way and some another?

Having just had another look at the picture, it appears that the boards line up further away from the camera, which would indicate that there is a problem when first feeding in or at the outfeed stage allowing the board to lift??
It looks like the groove is central but the tongue has wandered and the groove has followed it when you've put them together.

 

[Glynne]

Pete, I'd go for a thicker insert plate than 6mm if you can afford it. With a big router, you might get some bowing even with alloy so have a look around and see what's on offer. A bit expensive but Peter Sefton's tool business - Woodworkers Workshop sells 3/8" (9.5mm) Incra ones which can be pre-drilled to suit your router.

 

[manxman]

I have a similar router plate and also had problems with sag, the problem is that it's only supported on the 4 corners so there's a large unsupported span between each grub screw when you have it all adjusted flush with the table. My solution to this until I get a better plate is to pack between the corners with thin strips of aluminum untill there's no sag when you press down on it.
As others have pointed out you need to keep enough downward pressure on the stock when you pass it through to ensure it remains flat on the plate, it might be worth pushing some through with it turned off and cutter removed so you can see how much pressure you need to keep the stock flat and in full contact with the router plate.

 

[tim burr]

Just scanned through this, but looking at your set up it looks like you don't have a feather board or any way of applying pressure to the timber on the outfeed side of the router table. This will allow the timber to lift up once it's passed the infeed feather board and result in the cut running off.

 

[PeteG]

IHi Pete,

I would be interested in the links for the gear you used. Ive been thinking about buying a light tent for photographing door handles etc for our brochure bur I havent got a clue what lighting I would need.

I believe product photography is a big industry now due to ecommerce sites.

I dont know which router plate would be best, i used to use a steel one with adjustable corners. I did find that the top i used was dished inwards causing problems youve had. I screwed a hefty batten and shimmed to solve it.

Light tents are good Robin and will help minimize reflections on very shiny door handles, especially if the tent has a zipped front panel you can just poke the lens through. If it doesn't, get a piece polystyrene sheet
and make a hole for the lens. Again it will help with reflections, and/or your reflection! If you want the door handles on a white background, you'll probably have to cut the image out anyway and put it on a white background on a transparent one. You could then create a background and drop the image on to it, changing the background if you want a new/different look.
This router cutter was photographed inside a £1.50 opaque waste paper bin with a hole cut for the lens.



Have to agree with you about product photography and e-commerce, but the two problems I've encountered over the past seven months has been either price, people wanting quality images but don't want to pay, or thinking they can employ students cheap. I gave up applying for jobs last month as I was sick to death of hearing "You have too much experience"...

Pete that would be great and very interesting thank you. On my list of things to do is a infinite curve to try and improve my photos. Haven't even touched camera gear in 6 months but looking forward to taking off the lens caps.
Another one on the outfeed is definitely going to help, or if you've only got one, move it so its literally on top the cutter. Just keep your fingers clear - might be worth having some nice long push sticks to hand

Infinite curves are good Coley depending on what you need it for. I have a white paper background in the living room which I roll out when photographing clothing on a mannequin, but it's more for covering the carpet so there's less colour interference.

I'll post the links and a few images later, not sure where to put them so I'll post if General Chat

 

[PeteG]

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this so far , as I've only just scanned the thread. Why are you bothering to t&g it anyway , usually you can just glue boards up and just clamp them together. Maybe the odd biscuit or domino to aid alignment.

Hello Chippy. I've always used pocket holes and 3/4 inch ply for the drawers I made so far, and I wanted to learn and try a couple of new techniques., and it's been an eye opener on this one pine drawer!

T&G traditionally has the tongue & groove offset from centre so that when flooring is laid you can leave more timber above the tongue and groove allowing for more wear and tear.

Are you sure your cutter isn't made to cut off centre and you've done some one way and some another?

Having just had another look at the picture, it appears that the boards line up further away from the camera, which would indicate that there is a problem when first feeding in or at the outfeed stage allowing the board to lift??
It looks like the groove is central but the tongue has wandered and the groove has followed it when you've put them together.

You're right Graham, the groove is central but the tongue has been offset towards the end of the cut. Although yesterday when changing my technique, the offset was at the front and it was fine at the back.
It was after looking a bit closer I noticed the slight bow in the insert plate.

 

[PeteG]

Pete, I'd go for a thicker insert plate than 6mm if you can afford it. With a big router, you might get some bowing even with alloy so have a look around and see what's on offer. A bit expensive but Peter Sefton's tool business - Woodworkers Workshop sells 3/8" (9.5mm) Incra ones which can be pre-drilled to suit your router.

Hello Glynne . I called Axminster yesterday, apparently their UJK ones are the same size but I'd have to cut the table out to make a 10mm one fit flush. The phenolic 10mm is £48.00 the alloy 10mm is £95.00 :shock: but comes with a universal base plate, I'd only have to drill a hole for the riser handle. I've noticed for the 6mm supplied insert plate the rebate is 8mm deep, does that I need to make it 12mm deep for a 10 mm insert plate?

I have a similar router plate and also had problems with sag, the problem is that it's only supported on the 4 corners so there's a large unsupported span between each grub screw when you have it all adjusted flush with the table.

I thought that was standard Manxman until I searched for a replacement yesterday, now it makes sense!

Just scanned through this, but looking at your set up it looks like you don't have a feather board or any way of applying pressure to the timber on the outfeed side of the router table. This will allow the timber to lift up once it's passed the infeed feather board and result in the cut running off.

You're right Tim just the one feather board at the moment, hopefully pick another one up tomorrow with a new insert plate and more timber.

I really do appreciate all the help gentlemen

 

[Graham Orm]

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this so far , as I've only just scanned the thread. Why are you bothering to t&g it anyway , usually you can just glue boards up and just clamp them together. Maybe the odd biscuit or domino to aid alignment.

Hello Chippy. I've always used pocket holes and 3/4 inch ply for the drawers I made so far, and I wanted to learn and try a couple of new techniques., and it's been an eye opener on this one pine drawer!

T&G traditionally has the tongue & groove offset from centre so that when flooring is laid you can leave more timber above the tongue and groove allowing for more wear and tear.

Are you sure your cutter isn't made to cut off centre and you've done some one way and some another?

Having just had another look at the picture, it appears that the boards line up further away from the camera, which would indicate that there is a problem when first feeding in or at the outfeed stage allowing the board to lift??
It looks like the groove is central but the tongue has wandered and the groove has followed it when you've put them together.

You're right Graham, the groove is central but the tongue has been offset towards the end of the cut. Although yesterday when changing my technique, the offset was at the front and it was fine at the back.
It was after looking a bit closer I noticed the slight bow in the insert plate.

Aha, forgive me for not reading through all the posts. An easy way to cure that is a scissor jack underneath the router temporarily until you get a new plate. Place a straight edge across the plate and wind the jack until the plate meets the straight edge. It shouldn't harm the router if only for a short while.

 

[manxman]

Problem with using a scissor jack is that the plate may just be held down by magnets (mine is) so it will just get pushed out of the way

 

[Racers]

I can't help thinking a matched pair of tongue and grooving planes would have done the job quickly, quietly and easily.

Another hold down should cure the problem, it looks like the end of the plank is lifting probably the weight of the plank hanging over the edge of the table.

Pete

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I realise it is generalisation to suggest a facemark on the bow side is correct, although it is helpful for the machining operation issue the op is trying to diagnose.

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I've been rather tied up with other things and just couldn't seem to find the time to do so.

Anyway, now that you've come back and explained in more detail I can see where you are (or were) coming from. My reference to putting face side and face edge marks on 'true' faces was simply to recognise these marks are put on to the faces that were initially trued up with either hand or machines, assuming the job is done one face at a time rather than undertaken in one pass through something like a four sider machine. I agree entirely that these trued faces and edges (as is the same with all faces and edges, whether marked or not) are never perfectly true for all the reasons you say, and the marks generally nowadays are reference marks for following operations. I suppose the reality is that we use words like flat, true and square as shorthand to save having to say something like: "As flat (true, or square) as reasonably possible at a given time given the fact that wood is an unstable material and will likely change its shape later".

There was a time of course in handwork when it was fairly common to only true up just two or three faces or edges, and the marks applied really did determine which piece went where and how it was orientated. For example, I've seen many a table rail that was flattened on just the show face and two edges with the inside face left rough: I've seen rails that differed in thickness significantly from one edge to the other. Similar techniques were quite commonly undertaken with glued up wide panels such as table tops or carcass sides where the underside or inside was fairly rough, and even sometimes where boards in the panel were slightly different in thickness one to another. Techniques such as this saved time and physical effort in hand work, and whilst we may not approve of it now (nor perhaps was it really approved of by elite makers centuries ago) especially when it's so easy to run a piece of wood over or through a machine, it's perhaps a practice that we can understand being done. Slainte.