Time Wasters

[DoctorWibble]

Tomatwark has the right idea. Adapt the way you deal with customers to make wasting your time less profitable for them. Hand out renders or 3d sketches but never dimensioned drawings. Genuine customers will probably prefer it anyway. If someone insists on the drawings ask yourself why they actually need them? At the very least levy a steep charge to cover your design time and keep in mind that once you let go the drawings you're likely to be letting go the job.

Customers tend to assume that all contractors and trades are taking advantage and imagine these little tricks just redress the balance. In other words they see nothing wrong in it. Which is why its widespread and you need to protect yourself. Just explain why, keep it light, laugh don't moan and make sure to re-assure the customer that you don't suspect them of such underhand motivations. It won't lose you any profitable work.

 

[Lonsdale73]

This thread was intentionally generic but is becoming joiner specific. Not all of us a joiners, I'm certainly not, and for me and other non-joiners, our issues and problems might be the same insofar as time means money however the specifics aren't always the same and nor are the methods of dealing with them. Some of my bookings are last minute, some years in advance. If the latter are then cancelled at short or no notice; short is bad enough and worse case scenario I might have an unscheduled day making dust in the workshop however turning up for a booking that no one thought to tell me was cancelled is a real pain in the proverbials. It's not drawings I produce as such however I do create something that is bespoke to each potential client, it's largely speculative in nature and I have to hope that they like it enough to actually pay for it and not simply steal it. I have changed my modus operandi - where applicable as it isn't always - and I've found since asking for a deposit to secure the booking and balance settled before work takes place I'm getting fewer bookings than this time last year or previous. Am I losing out? Probably not because if they can't commit before the event, I'm damned sure they won't suddenly cough up afterwards. And I know it's just not me. I spoke to someone a year ago who wanted my help with an idea she had. She said she'd been floating the idea for some time and sufficient interest had been shown to make sense of approaching me about it. I agreed in principle, told her what I required with suggestions as to how that could be achieved which - from feedback she had received - seemed a simple matter. A date was set, numbers confirmed and with a week to go, not one of the people who signed up for it came forth with their payment. We're not talking vast sums here yet the day before it was due to go ahead, the organiser had to pull the plug. That wasn't my fault, it wasn't her fault, can't even say it was the customer's fault since they didn't actually pay anything that would qualify them as customers. It did highlight that some people are full of the brown smelly stuff and you can't rely on even people you know really well to do the things they say they will.

 

[treeturner123]

Many years ago I ran my own professional surveying business. In the ten plus years I only had 2 people who wouldn't pay. I took both to the then 'Small Claims' court and won both cases hands down.

One of the two then tried not to pay so I sent the bailiffs in. After giving the bailiffs a fictitious name first off, they did pay me and all the court costs.

The second tried to make out that I had done TOO GOOD a survey. The judges comment was that if I had done anything less, I would have been professionally incompetent. Pay up Mr client!!

He did.

Phil (now working for others)

 

[HappyHacker]

Working for the last few years as an electrician and have had not had payment problems, fortunately.

One prospect who got my name from a plumber I know got me to quote for a rewire on a house he was doing up. I never give itemised quotes, but I had gone through what he wanted and the best place for sockets/ cable runs etc so in total a few hours work. Never heard anything more. I assumed the plumber had got the central heating work. About year later I had a call to quote for installing external power to a garage. I thought the address was familiar, it was the same house. The prospect had obviously done the work himself, the new prospect had bought the house, no electric certificates and the work was not Part P compliant and would have failed an proper inspection. I saw the plumber soon after and he had not got the job either and was annoyed about the time he had wasted there, he had been asked for an itemised quote but had not produced one as he had been caught like the before as well, producing bills of materials for DIYers to use themselves.

Previously while working as a contractor through an agency the agency declared itself bankrupt the day after issuing invoices to the clients. This left me and the other contractors as unsecured creditors and we got no money back from the receiver, however the client had to pay the receiver as they were legally bound to. I lost over 10K. The client did however take steps to help and gave me a decent bonus at the end of the contract.

I have now retired so I do not have to be nice to people anymore Just got to decide who is going to take the least amount of money off me in the future so I can put my X in the right spot :-( Although through bitter experience I know whoever I vote for it is is going to cost me.

 

[slate1234]

I know what your feeling I did a 1.2m job there was £240,000 of extras the client ripped the invoice up and laughed at me telling me they would see me in court if I could afford to take them to court, to cut a long story short a good friend is a barrister we ended in arbitration got 70% of what was owed but knowing they had to spend a bloody fortune on legal fees made that bit better, I must admit I had a few trips to the doctor, now its always a deposit or a upfront payment, never mind all the programs regarding cowboy builder's what about ar..hole customers.
Paul

 

[Distinterior]

I ALWAYS take a non refundable deposit from my clients at the point of order, no matter how far ahead the project is booked for.
I have never had a client refuse to pay a deposit under any circumstances. When something is being made to order as opposed to just coming off the shelf, so to speak, they realise that once the order has been placed, it can't be cancelled without financial loss to themselves. For whatever reason, if they choose to cancel the order, that is their prerogative but I will not be out of pocket if the order/manufacturing process has started.

I imagine if you order a new car, you would be expected to pay a deposit. Try cancelling the car order and then asking for your deposit back from the dealer.......!

 

[tomatwark]

In 20 + years of being self employed, I have only had one person refuse a deposit.
The man in question came into the workshop to place the order and he said he did not pay deposits.
I said no deposit no kitchen, so off he went thinking I would back down, 1 hour later he was dragged into the workshop by his wife with the cheque. :lol:

 

[RogerS]

Why not take a deposit upon booking at least you will get some recompense should they cancel

Blood from stone springs to mind. As an example, I was approached by a young lady about a commission for her and four friends. Two dropped out as soon as they realised they'd have to pay anything upfront but three were 'defiantly' (should have rejected the commission on that basis alone!) up for it, right up till the point when deposit was required when they too backed out. I'd like to say that was the exception but more and more it's the norm. Another is "What's your day rate?" and when I ask "Do you pay one?" the answer is always - and I mean ALWAYS - 'No!' so I wonder why they bother asking? Other than to waste my time.

Simple tactic that works for me is to ask them to send you a photo of the room that the item is going in. 99 out of 100 never do. It goes no further and I saved all that wasted time and energy.

My pet hate are those sellers on eBay who offer a Make an Offer but then don't bother to respond.

 

[RogerS]

...... The prospect had obviously done the work himself, the new prospect had bought the house, no electric certificates and the work was not Part P compliant and would have failed an proper inspection. .......

Why not report the non-compliance ?

 

[AJB Temple]

I have been on both sides of this. Customers are wary of tradesmen because the building industry (and all of its various components) have a tarnished reputation for using deposits paid by one customer to complete the work of another / going bust / doing poor work / not turning up on time and so on.

I used to run a property development company. This gave me some useful lessons in how customers ask for extras then argue they were inclusive (I have no qualms about proceeding to litigation) and also how untrustworthy some tradesmen can be. My own view is that to be successful in business, apart from the usual necessity of charm etc, it is essential to have protocols for the work. Very clearly set out expectations regarding timeline, deposit etc are part of that, as are fully comprehensive and clear T&Cs. BullSh*t radar is a useful attribute and it takes experience to develop that.

 

[Lonsdale73]

Why not take a deposit upon booking at least you will get some recompense should they cancel

Blood from stone springs to mind. As an example, I was approached by a young lady about a commission for her and four friends. Two dropped out as soon as they realised they'd have to pay anything upfront but three were 'defiantly' (should have rejected the commission on that basis alone!) up for it, right up till the point when deposit was required when they too backed out. I'd like to say that was the exception but more and more it's the norm. Another is "What's your day rate?" and when I ask "Do you pay one?" the answer is always - and I mean ALWAYS - 'No!' so I wonder why they bother asking? Other than to waste my time.

Simple tactic that works for me is to ask them to send you a photo of the room that the item is going in. 99 out of 100 never do. It goes no further and I saved all that wasted time and energy.

My pet hate are those sellers on eBay who offer a Make an Offer but then don't bother to respond.

With you all the way on the nuisance ebayers although such practices aren't confined to ebay, happen on here too. It's ignorance and that's a pet hate of mine

I think if I was to ask for a photo of intended site I'd receive loads of photos of facebook since that's where the vast majority of my (sold or stolen) work ends up!

 

[HappyHacker]

I know what your feeling I did a 1.2m job there was £240,000 of extras the client ripped the invoice up and laughed at me telling me they would see me in court if I could afford to take them to court, to cut a long story short a good friend is a barrister we ended in arbitration got 70% of what was owed but knowing they had to spend a bloody fortune on legal fees made that bit better, I must admit I had a few trips to the doctor, now its always a deposit or a upfront payment, never mind all the programs regarding cowboy builder's what about ar..hole customers.
Paul

I worked with a builder who built a large garden wall for a customer with a very large house and garden. When he finished he took the bill to the customer who said "I know about people like you! Here is 2/3s of the amount, I am a barrister you can take me to court if you want, it will cost you a fortune and take years" He took the cheque and told his mate what had happened while he was putting the tools in the van. His mate said "I will be with you in a minute just some stuff to tidy up". The following week he was driving past the house and saw a Dynarod van in the drive he commented on the ******* having a faulty drain. His mate said "he has lots of faulty drains, I put cement down them all, as I know you would not do anything"

 

[Lonsdale73]

I know what your feeling I did a 1.2m job there was £240,000 of extras the client ripped the invoice up and laughed at me telling me they would see me in court if I could afford to take them to court, to cut a long story short a good friend is a barrister we ended in arbitration got 70% of what was owed but knowing they had to spend a bloody fortune on legal fees made that bit better, I must admit I had a few trips to the doctor, now its always a deposit or a upfront payment, never mind all the programs regarding cowboy builder's what about ar..hole customers.
Paul

I worked with a builder who built a large garden wall for a customer with a very large house and garden. When he finished he took the bill to the customer who said "I know about people like you! Here is 2/3s of the amount, I am a barrister you can take me to court if you want, it will cost you a fortune and take years" He took the cheque and told his mate what had happened while he was putting the tools in the van. His mate said "I will be with you in a minute just some stuff to tidy up". The following week he was driving past the house and saw a Dynarod van in the drive he commented on the ******* having a faulty drain. His mate said "he has lots of faulty drains, I put cement down them all, as I know you would not do anything"

I've found it's the ones with deepest pockets that are most likely to fleece you; guess there's a reason why they're the haves and not the have nots.

Since this is heading into tradesmen territory, my old house needed a lot of work doing to it and I called three numbers I'd been given to obtain quotes. First one didn't turn up when he was supposed to, said he'd forgot and arranged to come the following day. He did, but had forgot his tape measure, pen and paper so would have to come back the following day. I provided him with the required tools and got him to do the measuring while he was there. He, like the second one (who at least turned up at the appointed hour and suitably equipped for the task at hand), said he couldn't give me a quote on the spot but would take the measurements and get back to me with a price. By the time he did, the work had already been done by the third tradesman to visit, the second one I never heard from again. Third one came in, looked at what needed doing, reeled off a list of materials he'd need for the job, how much these materials would cost and how much it would be for his labour. The labour seemed a lot at the time although in fairness it was no more than garage mechanic charges as an hourly rate and I have to say he was spot on with the materials side and did a fantastic job with no mess to clear up after him. I brought him back and he installed a brand new kitchen, replaced the dining room ceiling, plastered the walls and built in a door to the garden and transformed the basement into a usable room. At each stage he told me what it would require, the associated costs and I heard him on his phone to someone, saying "Got a great customer here, tells me what he needs doing, I give him the costs he gives me a cheque." I'd have had him back to do the rest of the house too and I did offer him the work however he couldn't fit me in within the timeframe I had.

 

[sawdust1]

Small claims this Tuesday, bouncing cheque, 2nd one, middle-aged lady too , 2 1/2 years ago for £2,500.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It should be as it is afaik under French law - a criminal offence to bounce a cheque. Takes the risk out of accepting them.

 

[Penny]

I needed some work done in my garden (remove and dispose of a dangerous decking area, level the ground, build a low retaining wall, set up and lay patio slabs), so called four tradesmen. One didn't bother to show up. One measured up by pacing the area (even when I offered him a tape measure) and then sent me a quote that was very, very low. One measured everything well enough, never asked any questions about what type of slab etc, then quoted very, very high. One came and measured, asked me all the right questions, answered all mine and gave me a quote at the rate I expected.

Guess who got the job (and only wanted paying when I was satisfied with the work)? The work was done to a high standard, and he was paid by bank transfer within an hour of me saying that I was happy.

 

[lee celtic]

Things like this are mainly why I got out of the upholstery game..

Having an old dear sat in the shop for 3 hours thumbing through 30 pattern books looking for just the right fabric for her £20 dining chair recover.. then just goes for cream vinyl like we had on the work bench..

And while your sat with her you could have been earning ten times more working ..

We did get stiffed by a big building firm who we did some seating in a new sports complex.. they withheld 40% saying it was incase our work failed in the next 12 months so they could pay someone else to come and fix it.. we went to their head office where I dodged through security and marched straight into the boardroom during a meeting and dropped the claims court paperwork on the table in front of the directors and a new big client.. they paid there and then just to get rid of me..

Their Director paid up saying we would never work for them again... I replied "you took the words right out of my mouth"

And to get it away from building trades.. My son is a Tattooist and as he's just an apprentice he's not been allowed to ask for a deposit.. he can book in 10 people a week and only 3 or 4 will turn up.. His boss has just agreed to let him take a deposit because my son is spending 3 or 4 hours a day designing tats for people that never turn up.. even though his work is amazing...

One of his felt tip and pencil drawings.. just because this thread needs pictures..lol

 

[julianf]

About 90% of my work is custom 1-offs.

95% of that is export.

Everyone, rightly, assumes that they need to pay before i start converting stock into unsalable(to anyone else) product. I don't think I've ever had anyone suggest it should happen any other way.

It's strange that it's thought of as acceptable in some fields that people should work without security, whilst in others it's entirely the other way.

Possibly portfolio (which is obviously easier in some trades than others) is key to getting cash up front?

 

[tomatwark]

Since I posted last year about no deposit no work, I got caught out with a customer not wanting to pay for more expensive handles on the kitchen we made for them.

Because of this we now finally went down the signed contract route for kitchens, I had always managed to avoid this.

It has not made any difference to getting the work in, but at least the customer now has signed that they understand extras will be billed for.

The customer who got out of paying extra did say they would recommend us though, and have been true to their word and we have had a couple of really nice jobs from it, so you could say the money I lost out with the handles has been advertising.

 

[Adam9453]

If a client insists they want dimensioned drawings before signing then i’d Suggest you offer to provide the drawings for a fee which would be refunded (or credited against the full order value) when they place the full order. This method I’ve found certainly separates those with real intention to buy from those just after free drawings