The smoother hunt... and a Norris

[condeesteso]

(you can tell Strickly is back on... I'm posting things on the forum.)

Calling the Norris experts please. I have this post-War A5 (more about it in a moment) and am convinced the infills are mahogany. I have not researched everywhere yet, but in all the Norris info I can find, 'ebonised' beech abounds, no mention of mahogany. I'm sure it is post-War (screw through front bun, Norris marks etc). I could imagine the mahogany slipped in after rosewood (cost, availability??) and before beech maybe? Cannot see any Mahogany ones anywhere though.

It was an accidental find but the seller had done his homework so no steal. One owners stamp and the blade is virtually unused, adjuster was a little sticky but no wear at all... very promising in all

It is now on test against these 3, but I have more to do on the blade back to be fair to it.

Any knowledge about this period Norris would be welcome. My first thoughts are - I'll be using it so do not care a jot about dovetail, gunmetal etc - nice but don't need them I think. The adjuster is excellent, almost zero play, very smooth (I always back the lever off first, but I'm used to that with LN low-angle planes anyway, just good practice I think). Overall very promising indeed, nice size and weight, massive blade and cap, tight mouth... all very
good signs. I'll get it to work properly soon, more pics hopefully.

 

[custard]

Douglas, where a lot of Norris planes fall down is that the lateral adjuster shifts very slightly when you adjust the depth of cut. It's not generally a fatal flaw on a smoother, but can be on a longer plane when you're using a cambered iron to true an edge. I spent a long time looking for a Norris panel plane that held the lateral adjustment accurately.

 

[AndyT]

Hi Douglas,

The big book on the Russell collection has 47 pages of Norris planes. Almost all the infills use rosewood, but there are a few in walnut. There are also two in mahogany. Both are described as being possibly a wartime economy design - but that's the first world war!

So no direct parallel but evidence that the less exotic wood was used occasionally.

My own tiny experience of a borrowed modern Norris like yours suggests it should be a very satisfactory user. On the one I had, the pale colour of the beech showed through clearly at wear points and where the owner's name stamp had broken the varnish. Yours won't have that weakness!

 

[jimi43]

That would make a lot of sense Prof!

What did it say about the welded steel design? I know there were dovetails and then later...cast steel but what about welded steel...I thought that was later when they moved factories before the demise.

Having seen it I can say that it has hardly been used. There is absolutely no backlash on the adjuster (as you find with misused or very heavily used examples).

Certainly a nice find.

Jim

 

[condeesteso]

Thanks Custard and Andy. I am impressed with the Norris adjuster design - nice tight tolerances and it was a clever solution to the adjustment issue. It works very well too on the modern Veritas shoulder plane I have.
Re the possible drift of lateral when adjusting cut, I tend to back the lever screw off a little, then hold blade assembly with left hand thumb/forefinger to retain lateral, and adjust depth with right - seems to work OK. Having said that, the idea for me is get it set as a fine smoother and leave it (apart from honing occasionally).
There is an aesthetic question - the infills have a laquer which is about 80%, but I want to cut that back and oil the wood. Norris purists would squeal no doubt.
There is a tiny area of fall-away on the blade back (a sort of freehand dodgy back-bevel). I need to remove that to get the blade the way I want it, flat polished back. That will cost about 1.5mm of blade maybe... but as Jim said when he saw it, there's probably 100 years of blade on it anyway, maybe more.
I understand there are some good pattern blades around (Hock, others?) so I could try one later, but the main aim is to get a really good smoother out of this with its original blade. The cap iron is really excellent too - unlike the bent sheet Baileys, this is a proper machined lump.
Interesting it cost me a good bit less than a new Lie No3 in bronze (shown next to it) - happy indeed.
Wonder if anyone out there has a Ray Isles A5 by the way. He stopped making them because he couldn't make any money on them. At £395 when new, I'm not surprised (he should have added at least £250 I think).

 

[Harbo]

Here's a similar one in Beech:

And here's an A1 in Rosewood:

Rod

 

[MMUK]

Looks more like Rosewood than Mahogany to me :?

 

[jimi43]

Looks more like Rosewood than Mahogany to me :?

No...it's definitely mahogany. Under the handle is a cleaned bit and the grain and colour is definitely mahogany.

Jimi

 

[condeesteso]

Not so sure now. I first thought mahogany (as did Jim) because of the underside of tote / rear infill which looks like this (it did have a thickish dark varnish on which is mostly removed here):

But then the front infill:

Here's 2 more pics - the dark rather thick varnish is coming off with care and this is what is under:

Don't think it's mahogany anymore. Opinions please - purely out of interest. It's planing a treat, with more tuning of blade to be done yet.

 

[jimi43]

I'm still sticking with mahogany based on those picture.

I will see it in the flesh on Thursday but it has all the characteristics of the grain, colour etc.

Known woods are beech (stained), ebony, walnut and rosewood.

I think more research is necessary into this and I'm sure the information is out there on the Net...there are some serious Norris buffs around.

It is definitely original...that I do know.

Jimi

 

[AndyT]

Just in case it helps, this one was definitely stained beech - and it shows the much lighter wood underneath, just from wear to the varnish - I had made no attempt to remove it.

 

[markturner]

Hi Douglas, I have a similar Norris, but stained beech. They are great planes, mine works beautifully, it feels very nice in the hand and I am sure you will be very pleased with it when its fettled and cleaned. i am very envious of the wood, whatever it is, all the options are better than stained beech I think.....

 

[condeesteso]

I know, Mark... here's a pic:

Interesting your beech one doesn't have the screw through front infill, so is presumably earlier than mine. I wonder if, after the war, they just had a parts bin and consumed components in a random order.
(Corian router tabletop doing very well indeed by the way - highly recommended to all router-table builders out there).

 

[AndyT]

Another thought on your postwar Norris and its wood.

Have a look at this website - I think it's either fairly recent or not much linked to, but its author does attempt a bit of a type study on the A5. Although he says that the screw at the front is only found on post war planes, he does say this:

"Also, the rosewood in the prewars can vary from a very dark black looking almost as dark as ebony, to lighter browns of the same color family as mahogany."

It might be worth contacting him to discuss your plane or swap pictures.

https://sites.google.com/site/norrisplanedating/home

 

[condeesteso]

Excellent link Andy, many thanks (solid research as usual!). I have sent him an email. His comment about the rosewood in same colour family as mahogany is getting close now, I suspect. The mystery seems to be this is certainly a post-war (bun screw and Norris marks) and it's not ebonised beech. As/when I get any info back from Barry I shall pass on.

 

[jimi43]

How's it cutting now?

Jim

 

[condeesteso]

Getting close now Jim (pardon pun). There is still a tiny amount of fall-away on the back, and I am certainly not resorting to a back bevel, but given that (so less than perfect edge on both faces) it's planing wild cherry very nicely indeed, set thin ( 2 - 3 thou at a guess), no tearing.
The 1890-odd Stanley No6 is also doing rather well following a Tormek re-grind (courtesy Jim) - ready to re-dress the bench top now... it's overdue.
Once I have the Norris going again and a camera to hand, I'll do a few update pics.

 

[jimi43]

Getting close now Jim (pardon pun). There is still a tiny amount of fall-away on the back, and I am certainly not resorting to a back bevel, but given that (so less than perfect edge on both faces) it's planing wild cherry very nicely indeed, set thin ( 2 - 3 thou at a guess), no tearing.
The 1890-odd Stanley No6 is also doing rather well following a Tormek re-grind (courtesy Jim) - ready to re-dress the bench top now... it's overdue.
Once I have the Norris going again and a camera to hand, I'll do a few update pics.

Hi Douglas

Glad that it's working ok now. I think you're right...that back bevel will get progressively less and less as you eat up the iron naturally...it's always a problem when someone does that to the original...a legacy for ages!

Still...if it's working to your satisfaction don't worry...just live with it and start putting it to work. I am interested to see how it performs on that bench!

Did you find anything else out about the wood?

Jimi

 

[barryvabeach]

Douglas, nice Norris you have there. It is likely steel welded construction, definitely not dovetailed, though I don't think that has any impact on use. I have one post war and it has a very nice feel to it. The post wars were, as you mentioned, of varying construction. Some have a screw in the front bun, some just use pins, some have fully overstuffed infills front and rear, others like yours, have infills that are not overstuffed. I am not good a guessing wood species from photos, but I would think it is quite likely it is beech with the ebonizing stain. You didn't show a photo of the guts of the adjuster, but I would guess that it has a small screw at 3 oclock - in theory as the thread wore down, you could turn that screw in deeper to remove lag, though you don't have that problem. Once you get the blade sharpened, you should enjoy it. There are some that think tightness of the mouth is an important feature for a smooth plane, others think it is not that important. One "issue" with the post war's is that the mouths are fairly wide, especially in comparison with the prewar Norris - which can be as small as about .005. If you are a big believer that a small mouth is essential, you can either put shims under the blade to move it closer to the mouth, or get a replacement iron that is thicker. While a parallel iron is the appropriate replacement, so that as it gets sharpened the mouth doesn't open, in my experience a tapered iron will work just as well since it is unlikely you will grind it enough to change the opening much, and it is easier to find tapered irons than parallel , and if you find a tapered iron that is just a little too thick, you can grind it a bit to get a tight fitting mouth. I have also made replacement irons from flat stock, and that can be a less expensive route then buying the aftermarket Hock iron - just make a sample out off wood, and keep planing it down till you get the fit you want, and then measure and order the appropriate thickness piece of steel.

 

[condeesteso]

Hi Barry, many thanks for response (and welcome here!). In no particular order - the adjuster does have the small 3 o'clock screw.
The mouth certainly looks what I consider tight, but not actually measured it - can check with feelers later but it's what I regard as tight enough! I have not felt tight alone is a great thing. I have a steel-soled woodie (pic in row of planes earlier) that has a mouth like Kerry (a local lass whom you may not know, surname Catona). That woodie planes very well indeed so I imagine the massive blade and cap it has are contributors there.
The one unusual thing I think is the wood - it is definitely not beech, all finish is off. It seems that the normal post-war combo is the bun screw and ebonised beech. My current guess is this is a dense variety of mahogany or a rosewood. But I have not seen any mention anywhere at all of mahogany in post-war planes.
This does not concern me, but it would be interesting if anyone out there has a version like this.
I like the trick about planing stock down to get the mouth you want then ordering steel that thickness - I may use that on something else soon!! But the Norris blade has lots of life in it so I plan to get the best I can out of that (best is looking pretty good and I still have a little blade edge tuning to do).
Thanks Barry!