The same old eyewash

[Anonymous]

Sorry Billzee, I think you are wrong.

No problem Alf, we can't agree all the time :wink:.

As for

..give them a break :wink:..

. Nocando

I buy the mag, I read the review, I say as I find. Thats my right and my privilige and if they have any sense they will listen, in fact welcome the input.

Incidently, your ps Alf. You mentioned the problem of subjectivity in reviews. I merely pointed out that it was not a problem for you in this case. Fair point I thought

 

[kityuser]

surely catering for WHAT PEOPLE WANT is the biggest way to sell mags?????


surely a round-up every few issues of some tools that are:
a) most commonly found
b) most easily obtained
c) willingly dontaed by manufactures
d) and in the price bracket/target customer base
...... is what MOST people will want.

i.e. if I want to buy a drill, I`ll be looking at ones that:
a) I can afford (in my price bracket)
b) i can get hold of easily
c) are suggested by others as being good

so brand X that cost £million and can`t be got hold of anywhere is NO GOOD me reading about

I really won`t be interested in reading about a range of drills, some cheap, some expensive, some good, some crap.

just a fairly good cross section of the market that ,I`m interested in.

.... this may not be possible...... but I`d buy that mag, and I think others would too.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Bilzee,

If more people voted with there feet mags would be compelled to offer totally unbiased opinion, with their readers the only consideration.

Which implies that we make our decisions on who wins a group test by who advertises? Or that I am biased by manufacturers? Wrong on both counts. We are proud to be unbiased in our opinions and we are not in league with manufacturers to falsify any tools we test. Impartiality is the word here.

As for the 'cordless drill' question,( it could be any tool mind you) its up to you to make those decisions.

This should be part of your expertise.

Expertise I may have, clairvoyance I do not have! :shock:
As you say, I have to keep YOU happy, so by the same token, someone else will be upset. Not an ideal situation which is why smaller tools are batched in focused groups within a field, budget, target user etc.
Picking the most popular isn't the way forward, as there is always something or someone better out there deserving of an audience, hence our reviews of new tools as they become available.
Andy

 

[Anonymous]

I said

If more people voted with there feet mags would be compelled to offer totally unbiased opinion, with their readers the only consideration.

Andy said in answer.

Which implies that we make our decisions on who wins a group test by who advertises? Or that I am biased by manufacturers? Wrong on both counts.

Look, I do not want to get in to this line by line but you have just said this

As I see it, the problem is based on opinions. We have to tread a fine line in keeping readers, publishers and advertisers happy, so with your request

My implication for my quote is this.

People want comparitive testing, if we don't get it we should vote with our feet.

If the way you test your stuff is influenced by anyone but the the mag and tool buyer then IMO you are wrong.

When I say 'Me' I mean the customers who buy the mag and the people who buy the tools. By keeping me happy, you will be keeping the majority who read reviews happy.

The people who buy the mag and buy the tools should be King here, frankly your publisher or advertiser should be playing second fiddle.

Untill that scenario arrives, the testing can never be unbiased or believed to be unbiased.

Its not up for discussion, its a given, a fact.


I am not doubting that within your admitted restraints your testing is fair. That is not the point and you know it.

Stop blowing smoke and give us what we want.

I have a 1 years sub to your mag.

If more comparative testing is not evident in the future I will vote as said

 

[gidon]

As for our working on 7 issues a year, I think Pete is posting back on that one, but I would imagine it's based on what we would like to do compared to what Future Publishing expects of us!

Only one thing for it - you and Pete form a breakaway publishing company - deidicating your efforts to just one woodwokring mag - perhaps "Even Better Woodworking"!! Members here will surely help you with some reviews!

Thanks both of you - both threads provide an interesting insight into the world of woodworking magazine publishing.

However I still can't make my mind up on which of those previously mentioned bandaws to get. But they may be a topic for another thread ...

Cheers

Gidon

 

[johnjin]

Hi Andy & Pete

I would like to thank you both very much for putting in a presence in these forums. I can't comment too much on your mag itself as I have only ever bought one, No 147. However I did enjoy that and when i return to the UK shortly I will subscribe. For me it makes a difference that the people that write these articles visit this forum. I would like to say that I feel you have been treated unfairly today, and that you seem to have a thicker skin than me. As I have said elsewhere I would love more comparison testing but can understand the difficulties that are involved. Thank you both for explaning the problems that can arise from trying to keep us all happy.

All the best

John

 

[Anonymous]

Stop blowing smoke and give us what we want.

I have a 1 years sub to your mag.

If more comparative testing is not evident in the future I will vote as said

Whew. How did we get to this point from a simple innocent query about whether people would like to see more comparative testing and if so on what sort of kit? To be honest I'm not sure that I really want to listen to much more in that rather vitriolic vein. But one last comment in parting.

As magazine producers (by which I mean us here in the editorial office of GW) we have a duty to two people, namely the readers who buy the mag and the advertisers who advertise in it. Both are important and essential to us in equal measure. Take any one out of the scenario and the magazine goes down - simple economic fact unless there's about another 30,000 odd potential new readers witing to join us, which I seriously doubt. That said, I'm sure that I speak for both my colleagues when I say (and have said here in the past) that we test kit totally objectively and are not swayed by any advertiser's needs. Tests are unbiased and we report as we find, It would be nice if some people in particular would give us a bit more credit for a decent set of moral values and not be constantly implying that we are in the pocket of the big bad world of business.

What started this discussion was a desire to understand a small group of readers' need in a particular area of the mag so that we could find ways to better serve these. We've had some helpful requests. I wish I could say the same about some other comments.

Nuff said!

 

[Alf]

Billzee,

We'll agree to disagree then.

<Mod hat on>However, we will, if necessary, start disagreeing in a thread-locking kinda way if we have to. Let's keep it friendly here, folks. Even magazine editors have feelings. :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Neil]

Hi Pete & Andy,

On the unfashionable topic of attempting to give positive suggestions :wink: , something I would like to suggest is to have an A-list each month, which only needs to take up half a page. A computer magazine we get at work (PC Pro www.pcpro.co.uk) does this and I have learned to trust it enough over the years to blindly purchase whatever is their A-listed item if I haven't had time to do more research (I wouldn't do this with woodworking tools, I should add!) An example of the categories they use is the notebooks section, where they have A-list notebooks for four categories: value notebook, power notebook, ultra-portable notebook and business notebook. Each entry has a reference to the issue number in which that particular item was reviewed. Maybe this would work well in GWW - it just seems to be a natural extension of what you are doing already. For example, in issue 148 you named your 'A-list' routers as:

Lightweight - Trend T3
Mid-range - Makita RP1110C
Heavy-duty - DeWalt DW625

I can see that it would be a more difficult task for woodworking tools as there is more variation within each category, but I think it could work for most items.

Thanks for a great magazine - I don't subscribe because the postal charges to Ireland are a little steep (I'm sure this one is completely out of your hands) but I tend to buy at least half the issues and I enjoy them a lot. Sorry you've had a hard time today, and please keep contributing to the forum - your input is much appreciated!

NeilCFD

 

[Chris Knight]

Bilzee,

You do have a burr under your saddle today man! I reckon we are fortunate that the magazine folk visit here - let's not frighten them off.

Neil, I like your suggestion, as you say it seems to work pretty well in that PC mag. Another variation as someone already suggested is the star system of various car and motorcycle mags. that include a one or two line resume of past test findings.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi

I'm sorry people have taken my 'no messing' attitude as an insult and I apologise if that 'no nonsense' attitude has upset certain people.

I make no apologies for the actual points I have made as I think each one is justifiable and defendable.

I too commend the people from GWW to have had a go @ answering my criticisms/requests. They may not have done so to my complete satisfaction but they didn't shy away either.

As to whether there will be more comparative testing, time will tell.

Alf, I appreciate your comments regarding friendlyness and I think my posts generally are ......

.............. but sometimes one has to call a spade a spade.

It would be nice if some people in particular would give us a bit more credit for a decent set of moral values and not be constantly implying that we are in the pocket of the big bad world of business.

TBF, I have never said or even implied the above. I have just quoted simple unassailable facts. I'm sorry that the only response to them is quotes similar to the above.

I feel the point is missed

....I would like to say that I feel you have been treated unfairly today,.........

If its me you are referring to Johnjin I would appreciate you pointing that out. I have no wish to treat anyone unfairly and would apologise immediately if indeed I have been unfair

 

[johnjin]

Hi Bilzee

Yes it was you I was refereing too.
I think you treated two very worthwhile contributors to this forum very unfairly. But that is of course my opinion, although reading the other posts it seems I am not alone. While I agreed with your original idea I was not happy with the way you carried out what amounted to an attack on both Andy & Pete. I hope that answers your question.

All the best

John

 

[Alf]

Alf, I appreciate your comments regarding friendlyness and I think my posts generally are ......

Yep, I agree. Which is why I know my moderator-type words won't go unheeded :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Pete & Andy,

If I could suggest a way that I think the magazine could be improved?

To be honest, I probably only buy 4 or 5 GWW issues a year as when I pick it up and browse through it in W H Smith etc. I rarely find anything with enough depth to 'grab me’ enough to purchase it.

I will qualify that statement by saying that I have been 'playing' with wood for about 5 years now and have 99% of the tools I need/want and so tool reviews offer little interest. However, projects ad techniques do interest me as there is always something new to learn or try (barring those ‘weekend woodworker’ type projects which I abhor).
I favour magazines such as Fine Woodworking as they have in depth articles which often feature complex designs which intrigue and inspire me. I usually feel that the GWW articles are really aimed at a beginners market and offer nothing much for me personally.

So, my suggestion is to include something more akin to the FWW type project alongside your beginners projects as your readership encompasses all levels of skill and experience.

By the way, I read the other UK woodworking mags far less than yours and would rate yours the best UK mag.

Cheers

Tony

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Johnjin

Whereas Pete and Andy are two members of this forum, they are in fact something more and in that 'something more' they have a far greater responsibility IMO than just forum members.

My posts to them were in light of their positions as major contributors to GWW.

Now, you may not have liked my style, and you rightly pointed out you were not alone. I accept that and I have apologised for any upset I might have engendered with the robust attitude I assumed.

But one thing is for sure and this remains unchallenged ( so far)
that the points in my posts were largely correct and that most woodworkers when reading reviews would find comparative testing far more helpful than what is usually found within GWW.

In making this point I received all the reasons why it couldn't be done.

I guess then I took the gloves off.

As I said, I am sorry if some found this distasteful.

You have called it an 'attack', but it was the truth imo.

In that case I plead guilty to attacking with the truth.

Alf has reminded me that this is a friendly forum.

When honesty challenges friendliness which should be mute?

 

[Keith Smith]

Reading this thread has been very depressing, I got a similar treatment when I posted about UK magazines earlier this year and have voted with my feet and rarely visit this forum.

Do you really want to drive away these two guys too?

 

[johnjin]

Hi Keith

I don't agree that you got similar treatment at all. And I think that you are missing out on a very good forum by taking the stance that you have. This forum needs people like you as I believe I have said to you before and to let one person upset you so much I really don't understand. You are a furniture maker and I for one, and I expect everyone else on this forum would welcome your regular presence. In the main this is about the most friendly forum that I have come across, but after saying that there will always be little upsets between members because of either real or imagined digs. You seem to spend most of your time on the Novo and Screwfix forums where I read your ( what shall I say ) words of wisdom most days. For me it just seems a shame that you don't put more input here. But whatever you decide
Best of Luck

John

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Keith

I would just like to say that I agree with every word than John has written.

All the best
Neil

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Alf/Charley

Can we please lock down, or preferably, DELETE all of this thread?

Thanks
Neil

 

[Neil]

Can we please lock down, or preferably, DELETE all of this thread?

Oh No! Then we'll lose my 'A-List' suggestion which Andy and Pete haven't commented on yet!

Only joking Neil - couldn't agree more, I'm quite happy to sacrifice my post :wink:

NeilCFD