The ethics of tropical hardwoods

[billw]

I quite often read comments, as in the issue of F&C I perused last night, that makers are shying away from tropical hardwoods on the grounds of ethics. Now I find this.... trying to think of a suitable word here.... I dunno - a shame for the following reasons: -
1. Trees are easily renewable, it's not like ivory (which I know is technically renewable but obtaining it is slightly less good for that type of trunk than the one made of timber)
2. I cant see that eradicating their use is a better solution than having a certified and manageable supply which allows the economies of developing nations to retain some income
3. Tropical hardwoods provide a beautiful element that's hard to replicate, unless the future is brown (oversimplistic I know)
4. Usage can be hugely reduced by only allowing supply in veneer form

 

[Doug B]

I think the problem is the black market, like ivory if you completely ban certain timbers then it easier to prosecute folks trading in them as no one should be, draconian I know but tropical hardwoods take centuries to grow to big sizes so while I agree they are renewable but business wise no one is going to invest in forests of them.

 

[gregmcateer]

I'm interested to hear views on this, too. I don't know much about the subject. I suspect in the past, (i.e. for example colonial times), the resources were pretty much pillaged at will, but sustainable production could help developing economies, as you say in 2. above.
Perhaps exotic wood is very slow growing? and sustainability, as well as fair recompense (to the economy of the country, rather than a western corporation), would need to be 'policed', I guess.

Hopefully some in the know will be along to answer.

Doug seems to have got the answer in early!

 

[billw]

Well it's free to plant a tree right? OK it might not be ready for a hundred years, but at least if there's a steady supply of saplings then what's the issue? I just think people might appreciate them more if there's a limited supply and they're used sensibly rather than just a blanket ban.

Agree about the black market thing though and having to police it.

I was bringing this to the fore because I want to make a desk and my plan was to make the carcass out of solid African ebony. I know that is completely insane but I've had the project on my "must make" list for a decade now and if I make it in anything else I'm bound to feel as if I wasted my time.

 

[D_W]

The chinese furniture market uses about 90% or more of the tropical hardwoods harvested.

We went through this with the guitar market (I like to build guitars from time to time, and seemingly, buy them more often than that). The guitar market has always been a small user of rosewoods, mahogany, etc, but is caught up when they become someone's favorite for architectural or furniture wood.

I don't have the chart in front of me, but Chinese consumption of tropicals (specifically rosewoods) in the last 10 years is about 8-10 times the consumption of the entire world the 10 years prior. The reason is simple - rosewood furniture is a status symbol in china and economic easing there has led to a huge economic explosion and a rise of a class of people who equate showing rosewood furniture in their house as showing success.

CITES has finally recognized this for guitars, and eased restrictions for guitars, but not for furniture.

If you're buying in the west or europe, generally, the wood that you get is plantation grown wood with wide growth rings, and isn't that expensive. If I have the desire to use any of the woods and they're legal, I will. We are not the cause of the shortage.

According to one of the articles about furniture (that described rosewood consumption increasing by a factor of 10 in one decade), it's not uncommon for Chinese traders to have wood from africa (that's restricted) mislabeled and shipped in an attempt to evade trade rules.

(a quick search turns up a lot of articles like these)

https://www.ecosystemmarketplace.co...wood-turning-tropical-forests-into-furniture/
This kind of guilting about "ethics" when we're not the driving force of the problem and our behavior has no effect on chinese taste reminds me of the eco guilt in the US for people to never use any chemicals or fertilizers on their lawns when lawn treatment makes up about 1/20th of the chemical and fertilizer used in the US - all the while, the ag industry goes to no-till and the chemical use stays flat or increases. And people living on 1/6th of an acre are wringing their hands about squirting weeds with a spray bottle or fertilizing new grass.

 

[billw]

Yes I noticed that some places sell exotic timbers that are preshaped into guitar components because the export restrictions force it.

 

[gregmcateer]

Interesting idea, to only allow smaller and or thinner veneer pieces.

D_W do you know - do these 'exotics' take longer to grow to maturity / useable sizes?

 

[MusicMan]

Woods are on the CITES lists for good reason: they are endangered (no trade allowed) or at risk (trade limited, eg to manufactured items). These factors take account of how long it takes to replenish a supply and whether the supply is, in fact, currently replenishing. Yes, it is easy to plant a sapling but unless people do this in enough quantity the resource is not sustaining.

All Dalbergia (rosewood) species are now endangered and on one or other of the lists. Exceptions are negotiated for e.g. hardwoods essential for musical instruments and used in small quantities, as long as the appropriate licences are obtained.

I do think that it is necessary to have international agreements obliging compliance on trade in endangered species, otherwise situations like the Chinese furniture market will actually destroy the resource. No, the odd guitar won't make a difference but you can get the wood from a certified source for this.

Custard has written before about this and posted that he has sold his exotic hardwood stock to luthiers, and is building furniture from non-endangered and more local European species such as maple, beech and Douglas fir. Hurrah for him and those who do likewise.

 

[D_W]

Yes I noticed that some places sell exotic timbers that are preshaped into guitar components because the export restrictions force it.

That's a bit of a gray area. The exemption only applies to finished parts and finished guitars. I think a lot of the bits and pieces sold as guitar blanks are cut to shape to attract buyers. If you can cut a nice straight piece of quartered rosewood into guitar neck blanks, you can get about $75 a board foot for plantation wood. I don't know what it sells for as 5/4 lumber, let's say, but it wouldn't be hard to find out (I'm sure it's a fraction, as there is a lot of plantation wood available).

Most of the wood used to make finished guitars and guitar parts came into the supply of the maker as a restricted/signed for wood. So, in theory, it's been legally obtained. The music industry claimed that they use 1 thousandth of 1 percent of the rosewood supply (i have trouble believing that's accurate, but if they use a tenth of a percent, I could believe that - I think they got the decimal wrong). But they do buy logs and unfinished wood and have to document it. Domestic sale is unrestricted once it's here (I buy rosewood blanks to make guitar necks, etc, they have all been second or plantation growth type wood - all of it has). If you can buy it in-country, it's likely old stock or legally obtained stuff.

Years ago, I saw a raw indian rosewood log at hearne here in the states. it had cracks and other unusable areas, and was $135 a board foot. I didn't count the rings, don't remember if I could even see them, but it looked like a completely different wood. I can't remember what hearne's point was as the log wasn't big enough for a serious buyer, I think it was just to demonstrate the difference between first and second growth wood. There was also a horrid tiny board of brazilian rosewood for $1950 that would've been good for nothing but tiny veneering. By tiny, I mean like 5" wide and 30 inches long of 4/4, with terrible grain pattern and a hole in one end.

At any rate, I think cutting things to shape or drawing guitar patterns on suitable parts is just a matter of trying to find the highest priced buyer. I'll gladly pay $80 for a decent neck blank because anything remotely good in rosewood guitar necks will generally be $400 or more (most that are cheaper are pau ferro or something else, or poorly sawn wood).

 

[R1chard]

Being from Africa and seeing forests cut down to stumps... a total ban seems to me to be the only way.
Chinese timber buyers are no different to the other poachers in the market. They view natures cornucopia as theirs for taking and experience no remorse as it is simply a financial activity with costs vs profit. To corrupt people en route to their goals is simply an expense. The rarer the product becomes the stronger the drive to steal the last before its gone..

 

[Ttrees]

I've watched about all of the info I could find on the illegal logging industry, I havent done any "Darknet onion router search though " so it might exist.
We're not seeing the full picture is my guess.
Have a look at Bob Taylor concerning gaboon ebony, he bought "all the trees", or a large amount of them in Cameroon.

If its the same for the rest of the African species, would you know?
I hear folks mention that quality has dropped recently (pre covid)
so I gotsa guess it might be the case.

(concerning ivory, you can get fossilized walrus ivory from Russia or somewhere)
Held a big lump of it before which an Uilleann piper had, and whilst it seemed nice,
the same as cow bone in my eyes,
Properly de-greased and not bleached it is just as good IMO.

Would be very interested to see some new documentary's on illegal logging if there are some.

There was a very interesting thread a few years back I might try finding
Only thinking about it whilst I was chopping a hazel tree up yesterday,
(got a big pile of ash and decided it was too good to burn, so chopped a hazel stump which was found at the local park, which I was keeping for a while...
I thought the stuff would be rubbish, but it was tough stuff, good enough to use for boxes it seems, although the furniture beetle might like it a bit much?

Will try and find that thread now
Tom

 

[marcros]

If you made yourself an item now out of a CITES species (old stock so no question of not being legal) is it going to be an embarrassment to your kids when you leave it to them when you die? Is it going to be like having a tiger skin rug, or an elephants foot umbrella stand?

 

[D_W]

Interesting idea, to only allow smaller and or thinner veneer pieces.

D_W do you know - do these 'exotics' take longer to grow to maturity / useable sizes?

Some do, and some of the dalbergias only really grow in short or bushy trees in the first place, so early large pieces would've been rare. I don't think bois de rose grows large, nor kingwood (those are unobtanium pricing now, anyway). It's hard for me to know from a guitar wood buyer's perspective as the only thing requiring a large tree in guitar making is quartered one-piece bodies, and they aren't common any longer. I've only ever seen one made of indian rosewood (the blank) and it was $300 a board foot roughly.

Exotic wood is usually used in veneers, fingerboards and neckblanks on guitars (and a gaggle of other smaller parts that aren't big enough to mention, like tuning pegs, and bridges for acoustics, etc). In the cases of veneers for backs of guitars, the body wood veneer is two or three pieces on patterns popularized by gibson and martin. So, smaller slower growing trees aren't as much of a concern vs. stability and grain direction.

 

[D_W]

Let me add a comment about actual rings on plantation indian rosewood (re: growth rate). The neck blanks that I have appear to be about 6 rings per inch, so it would seem at least in that case, it's not slow growing. I think the second growth is quite nice for guitars, and the guitar market isn't so educated to know much difference between first and second growth and would probably like the broader straighter rings when it comes to indian rosewood (seeing it as vivid grain).

 

[Richard_C]

I took up woodturning almost 2 years ago. I bought a mixed pack of blanks and spindles which had some small 'exotics' mixed in. After a bit I formed the view that we have plenty of British and European hardwoods which stand a good chance of coming from properly managed sustainable forests so since that first batch I have stuck to British (or at least European) stuff just because it seems silly to do otherwise. Transport, forest management, sustainability and all sorts.

On the other hand, my son is an orchestral percussionist and you need particular tropical woods for things like the notes of a marimba or xylophone. He has a nice locally made marimba, rosewood notes but the frame is English Oak.

So for what its worth, my view is to use exotics only if you need for a specific functional reason, but for 99% of what we 'need' local is the responsible choice.

 

[thetyreman]

I don't have a problem with a luthier using brazilian rosewood, genuine mahogany or ebony on a guitar, if they feel like it makes it sound better then do it, I have been playing guitar a long time and have played guitars with these woods and they do have a sweeter sound, I think there is some truth to these woods being the best sounding tone woods. p.s cocobollo is nice as well.

 

[Droogs]

It may not be a popular view but I definitely feel that in this modern era of CH and climate control in homes most furniture should be made of man made materials. The use of exotics should be limited to veneer production to make the man made stuff attractive. Also hopefully re-spark marquetry in general furniture production. By this I don't mean crown cut blandness of ikea/dfs etc but for makers to use veneers to lift their products to new artistic designs

 

[Ttrees]

This is the thread in which hazel was mentioned.
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/how-to-buy-hardwoods.107912/page-2#post-1175492
@R1chard
Would be keen on finding more about this, I've heard this from plenty of folks, so I believe it rather than any documentary, although I would watch anything on the subject, don't mind if its in French or any other languages.

Although with reclaimed timber, that will never be seen as a sin to have made something from it...
Just like if you got all the ivory dust and glued it togethe....
You might have a point, there!

Will people turn into such snowflakes in the future, that they will see tree as having feelings, I doubt it, so it will just look or have that feel like an old piano next to an Ipad, (in my mind)

 

[MusicMan]

I don't believe that trees have feelings. I do believe that biodiversity and species extinction (plants as well as animals) is an absolutely massive problem, but too long term (ie 5+ years) to get the attention of politicians.

And while it is perfectly OK to upcycle old cupboards etc for hardwoods, it is not OK for ivory if you are going to sell it - even reworked old ivory is illegal to sell.

 

[D_W]

I don't have a problem with a luthier using brazilian rosewood, genuine mahogany or ebony on a guitar, if they feel like it makes it sound better then do it, I have been playing guitar a long time and have played guitars with these woods and they do have a sweeter sound, I think there is some truth to these woods being the best sounding tone woods. p.s cocobollo is nice as well.

There are ringers in indian rosewood, too, and sometimes african mahogany guitars are very percussive and lively with strong mids, but in general, the odds seem to be better with brazilian and honduran mahogany, etc.

Brazilian remains restricted except for authorized use of naturally fallen trees. I don't know where that stuff goes as use of braz in musical instruments is very uncommon now until you get to nosebleed prices (and probably a lot of that is old stock wood). I saw a very cheesy gibson firebird style guitar that would bring about $1500 on the open market sold with a braz. drop top for $8K. If something like that is made in small numbers, someone will be dumb enough to buy it. The quality for most of the brazilian stock remaining is so poor now that I guess it's a guess as to whether or not it will sound better like the prewar martins (which are one of the few guitars that people can pick out on a blind test).

But yes on the wood making a difference. I bought a lovely pau ferro back and sides guitar last year as the price was right and I'd guessed by density and hardness that it would sound like a rosewood guitar. It didn't. It looked like a rosewood guitar and sounded fundamental and dark like one with mahogany sides and back. So much so that I'd say it sounded just about exactly like mahogany - puzzling to look at and play at the same time.