The 'Barkwindjammer method'

[David C]

So do I. (Flawed)

More effort will be required because the area of the flat side is much greater than that of the bevel. Therefore more metal will have to be removed.

David Charlesworth

 

[bugbear]

Honing just the back of the blade is sometimes advocated by users of combination and multi-planes where there is a danger of destroying the profile of the blade. It is mentioned in Planecraft by C W Hampton and E Clifford when discussing the Rocord #405 Multi-plane. I'm not convinced myself and think that for best results you need a high polish on both sides of the blade.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Yes - but in this case you may have to compromise between excellence of edge and excellence of profile retention.

Because getting a "perfect" polish on a complex shape is "interesting".

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

.. the area of the flat side is much greater than that of the bevel. Therefore more metal will have to be removed....

I thought the whole point of the hollow faced Jap chisels was that the flat area is reduced and may be same as or even less than the bevel. Another form of hollow grinding.
So BWJ is half right at least!

 

[Paul Chapman]

.. the area of the flat side is much greater than that of the bevel. Therefore more metal will have to be removed....

I thought the whole point of the hollow faced Jap chisels was that the flat area is reduced and may be same as or even less than the bevel. Another form of hollow grinding.
So BWJ is half right at least!

But even with a Japanese chisel, you would have to remove too much metal to make honing only the flat side a practical proposition, because the roundness on the bevel side still needs to be removed.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[barkwindjammer]

The only flaw here is in how your interpreting the BWJ method.

 

[barkwindjammer]

A butcher has a range of tools, a hacksaw, cleaver, boning knife, trimming knife and filleting knife, now, he could divide a carcase/joint up by using his prized razor sharp filleting knife (after all its the sharpest implement he has ) and simply give that a crafty belt with something heavy.

 

[matthewwh]

I'm open to correction here but the whole point of secondary bevels and hollow ground backs (in the English 'length of the blade' sense rather than the Japanese 'middle of the blade' one) is to minimise the amount of additional metal that needs to be removed in order to remove the wear bevels.

If the BWJ method is a p155 take then I just bit the bait, but I'm in very esteemed company. If not you may just have inadvertantly hit upon a rationale that explains why so many old blades have whopping bumps in them.

It will work well as long as the blade is concave in its length but the second you pass flat without then re-concaving the belly of the blade you have a progressively harder to rectify bump that can eventually only be resolved by selling them to Tom Sustins on eBay.

The standard method of using secondarys and fractionally concave backs is rationally, geometrically and logically the most efficient method of removing wear bevels. It is not difficult, and if done accurately can take less than a dozen or so carefully placed strokes and a regrid every once in a while (Charlesworth and just about everybody else method) or 150 frenzied washerwoman like strokes and no grinding (Grimsdale method).

Taking the whole of the back of the blade up through both wear bevels is in theroy self jigging until the blade wear is considered, thereafter it is as sensible as walking everywhere to save yourself the trouble of driving.

 

[Jacob]

....or 150 frenzied washerwoman like strokes and no grinding (Grimsdale method). ......

Nothing against grinding. Belt sander best IMHO. But with smaller chisels up to about 1" ish you don't need to at all if you just relax into the dip and rounded bevel.
Stroking frenzied washerwoman just doesn't come into it!

PS Japs seem to be into the frenzied WW technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znOICyk8 ... re=related
Dozens of similar examples in the menu on the right hand side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H92l5G4 ... re=related
No jigs!

 

[Doug B]

Stroking frenzied washerwoman just doesn't come into it!

That`s a pity O it might of helped get the oil off me hands.....back to the grindstone

 

[bugbear]

If not you may just have inadvertantly hit upon a rationale that explains why so many old blades have whopping bumps in them.

It's described in virtually every textbook on woodwork. It's caused by incremental raising of the angle as the sharpener tries to "make sure" the abrasives have "touched" the actual edge. It's named, with various degrees of reprobation, "a rounded bevel", and the books are very clear that it is to be avoided.

One theoretical cure is merely to NEVER go over your target angle.

The cure in the textbooks is to simply grind away the error every so often.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

...

One theoretical cure is merely to NEVER go over your target angle.....

Practical cure surely? Can still produce a rounded bevel but a perfectly acceptable sharp edge.
What the books all warn against is the other sort of rounded bevel where the edge angle is gradually being increased. Not necessarily "rounded" either - you can raise the angle and produce perfectly flat bevels. Rounded or flat is irrelevant - it's the angle at the edge which counts.

 

[bugbear]

...

One theoretical cure is merely to NEVER go over your target angle.....

Practical cure surely?/quote]

Theoretical if you're talking about hand honing - how, without using a jig, does one go to, but never over, a target angle?

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

...

One theoretical cure is merely to NEVER go over your target angle.....

Practical cure surely?/quote]

Theoretical if you're talking about hand honing - how, without using a jig, does one go to, but never over, a target angle?

BugBear

Easier than you think (obviously). You should try it, I know you can do it!
Ask yourself how it is possible to freehand hone indefinitely without increasing the angle (the dreaded rounding or dubbing over) as millions of woodworkers around the world have been doing since time immoral.

 

[bugbear]

Ask yourself how it is possible to freehand hone indefinitely without increasing the angle (the dreaded rounding or dubbing over) as millions of woodworkers around the world have been doing since time immoral.

Simple - I don't think they have.

Speaking as a regular attendee of specialist tool auctions, and car boots, I've seen massive numbers of badly dubbed, blunt chisels. Dubbing (just like the wise authors of those lovely textbooks said) happens.

Still, we've been here before, and I can only presume you're still happy with the sharpness of your own tools, so I'll leave you to it.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Ask yourself how it is possible to freehand hone indefinitely without increasing the angle (the dreaded rounding or dubbing over) as millions of woodworkers around the world have been doing since time immoral.

Simple - I don't think they have.

That's ridiculous nonsense. Just show us the evidence for early jigs!
True - edges get dubbed over, but it's perfectly possible to rectify them freehand, or to prevent it happening at all, freehand. Even stone tool users can manage it - refreshing an edge just by chipping away without a jig :shock: :shock:
Hand and eye skills; (obviously) you have no faith in your own.
I can't play the ocarina; that doesn't mean I believe that no-one else can.

Speaking as a regular attendee of specialist tool auctions, and car boots, I've seen massive numbers of badly dubbed, blunt chisels. Dubbing (just like the wise authors of those lovely textbooks said) happens.

I see mostly rusty stuff at car boots too - rust happens.
You may have to think hard on this one, but consider the stuff at car boots and specialist auctions; by definition it is no longer in the care of a careful owner/user. This may have some bearing on the condition. Think on!

 

[bugbear]

This is no dig at the method - each to their own, but as i pointed out in the original thread, in the video here the end grain paring of cherry especially indicates to me that the chisel is way short of being truly sharp. At least, for what i would call sharp.

cheers,
Andy

Even though he uses a sequence of stones that include much finer grits than the original Grim method.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

This is no dig at the method - each to their own, but as i pointed out in the original thread, in the video here the end grain paring of cherry especially indicates to me that the chisel is way short of being truly sharp. At least, for what i would call sharp.

cheers,
Andy

Even though he uses a sequence of stones that include much finer grits than the original Grim method.

BugBear

The fact that one amateur woodworker has produced (I agree) a not very convincing demo of end grain paring, means absolutely nothing at all. He's got the method all right , he just needs to work on it.

BB are you really saying that no sharpening in the whole of history is possible without the aid of jigs? If your answer is yes, then you are mad, if no, then how did they do it?

Moving into DFTT territory!

PS you won't believe this (obviously) but people have been known to sharpen axes, chisels, all manner of tools, perfectly well, when they have been out in the wild and miles away from the nearest jig, without a Veritas bevel setter, not even having a simple protractor. Just hand and eye! :shock: Unbelievable or what? :lol:
They even manage this when they know absolutely FA about geometry and have never heard of degrees and angles!

 

[barkwindjammer]

If you look carefully at a plane blade that is blunt, you will see that the sharp edge has become rounded.

Paul

If I had a microscope ! and I've got great eyesight.
If you can see a rounded edge on the end of a plane or chisel then your leaving it too long between sharpening.

 

[GazPal]

This is no dig at the method - each to their own, but as i pointed out in the original thread, in the video here the end grain paring of cherry especially indicates to me that the chisel is way short of being truly sharp. At least, for what i would call sharp.

cheers,
Andy

Even though he uses a sequence of stones that include much finer grits than the original Grim method.

BugBear

The fact that one amateur woodworker has produced (I agree) a not very convincing demo of end grain paring, means absolutely nothing at all. He's got the method all right , he just needs to work on it.

BB are you really saying that no sharpening in the whole of history is possible without the aid of jigs? If your answer is yes, then you are mad, if no, then how did they do it?

Moving into DFTT territory!

PS you won't believe this (obviously) but people have been known to sharpen axes, chisels, all manner of tools, perfectly well, when they have been out in the wild and miles away from the nearest jig, without a Veritas bevel setter, not even having a simple protractor. Just hand and eye! :shock: Unbelievable or what? :lol:
They even manage this when they know absolutely FA about geometry and have never heard of degrees and angles!

+1 :wink:

Blade/iron sharpness varies just as much by degree and utility as the many methods used to achieve an edge suited to it's intended use. Razor sharp for paring and planing and sharp enough to serve the purpose for most other tasks, but neither requiring a degree of sharpness within +/- 5 microns or honing accuracy within +/- 3 degrees. For this degree of accuracy the human eye and sense of touch is perfectly adequate and accurate with practise when freehand honing.

Grinding is a different kettle of fish, but the method prescribed by the originator of this thread is perfectly satisfactory for both purposes. Especially since grinding and honing angles smoothly blend into one and provide a perfectly sharp and useable edge.

Are honing guides essential? No. The reason being that a perfectly useable edge is readily achieved when honing by hand and eye and with little practise.

 

[barkwindjammer]

Here is a usefull practical exercise-to describe the 'frequency' that is the key to the BWJ method

Cutting a Tenon on both ends of a piece of stock,
go about this in your usual way-remove bulk of stock (handsaw/bandsaw/tablesaw/hacksaw)-

now fettle one tenon with your 'specialy chosen BWJ honed chisel',
after fine tuning that tenon- re sharpen your 'fettling chisel' using the BWJ method on your 'flat' stone/film/DMT BEFORE you go on to fettle the tenon at the other end of the stock - no patience? 6-10 strokes?